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Post by Touchable on Jan 4, 2015 22:24:14 GMT -5
Seriously, it seems like Marrone was basically fucked from the get-go.
It seems to me like Buddy Nix was having thoughts of stepping down as GM in the near future (which he did 4 months after the hire) and that's exactly why he included the 2 year opt out in Marrone's contract.
Marrone was the hot, up and coming HC candidate 2 years ago that guys like Quinn, Bowles and Gase are today. Hell, even more so.
The guy went from OL coach of the Jets, to OC of the Saints, to HC at Syracuse to HC in Buffalo all within less than a decade. And he had success everywhere.
He's also received glowing reviews from Superbowl winning GM's like Polian, Wolf and Casserly. Not to mention past Jets like Curtis Martin, Kevin Mawae, Brandon Moore, Pete Kendall, etc.
A guy who made his bones with the Jets, is a respected coach with an offensive background, specializes as an OL coach, hires guys like Pettine and Schwartz within a 2 year span to look after the defense and has experience as a HC in both college and the pros?
And I'm supposed to demonize Marrone, why exactly??
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Post by Big L on Jan 4, 2015 22:26:50 GMT -5
I wouldn't go canonizing him either.
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Post by Touchable on Jan 4, 2015 22:32:05 GMT -5
I wouldn't go canonizing him either. No one is saying that the guy is going to be the next Bill Walsh and sweep us off our fucking feet from the depths of the dark to the glorious light of multiple Superbowls. But is Marrone some kind of horrible candidate like some are making him out to be? Fuck no It stems from a serious case of "this guy used to be the HC of the Bills and he left? Ewwwwww".
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Post by The Tax Returns Are in Kenya on Jan 4, 2015 22:33:52 GMT -5
Is this a defense of Marrone? How is someone who gets into screaming matches with his management and can't get what he wants from them, because they apparently have no respect for him, a positive? And whose fault is it that Watkins couldn't get open if not the coach's? Just look at this objectively... Marrone was hired by a GM in Buffalo who then stepped down 4 months later. You've now been working with a GM for almost two years that never hired you and you don't particularly agree with. And now new ownership has now come into play in the past few months. Now, why in the FUCK would you stick around in that situation when the team already agreed to give you an out clause after 2 years and pay you $4 million dollars in the process? Why is hardly anyone seeing this? I have no problem with how he left the team, it's what he did while he was there that I'm talking about.
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Post by Big L on Jan 4, 2015 22:34:12 GMT -5
From reading the mega thread, seems to me like everyone IS making him out to be the next Bill Walsh.
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Post by Touchable on Jan 4, 2015 22:41:07 GMT -5
Just look at this objectively... Marrone was hired by a GM in Buffalo who then stepped down 4 months later. You've now been working with a GM for almost two years that never hired you and you don't particularly agree with. And now new ownership has now come into play in the past few months. Now, why in the FUCK would you stick around in that situation when the team already agreed to give you an out clause after 2 years and pay you $4 million dollars in the process? Why is hardly anyone seeing this? I have no problem with how he left the team, it's what he did while he was there that I'm talking about. What do you mean? I know I seem to be repeating it over and over, but an offensive coach who has proven that he can surround himself with guys like Pettine and Schwartz to oversee the other side of the ball? A guy who the likes of Polian, Wolf and Casserly all respect and players like Mawae, Martin and Moore all admire? Yeah, I'll take that. Especially coupled with a GM with a strong scouting and personnel background like Maccagnan, Pace or Mueller.
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Post by carlito1171 on Jan 4, 2015 22:58:31 GMT -5
Please everyone take the time to go read the Bills fan forums. There front office is in shambles. At the end of training camp Marrone got into a screaming match with Bills president Russ Brandon and GM Doug Whaley. He was very upset that they waited so long to bring in a competent veteran QB when he had been begging them to do so since before the season. The front office also brought in a guy like Mike Williams, who Marrone kicked off of his Syracuse team, and didn't bother to consult with Marrone about acquiring him. Marrone was an offensive line guru and the Bills drafted 3 offensive linemen, all tackles. The Bills had 9 offensive linemen on their entire team, 6 of them were tackles. Marrone has said in the past that the only way to move players around is from the inside out (meaning moving a guy from guard to tackle). But since all he had was tackles he had to play a tackle at RG and that hurt their team badly. The Bills are going into this off-season needing two starting guards b/c of how bad their guard play was this year. My theory is that Marrone wanted Martin at their pick and new they could get another WR in the 2nd round or even trade back into the first round to select Benjamin without much dropoff in production. Marrone was not hired by Whaley, he was hired by Buddy Nix prior to him stepping down as GM. Whaley and Marrone have never been on the same page and that has been widely reported in Buffalo since before the season. Since I live in Rochester and my wife is a die hard Bills fan I have seen most of their games. The Bills got much better production out of their offense than Marrone is getting credit for. They turned a journeyman QB into a guy who threw 18 td's and 12 int all while having zero running game to speak of. Their big #1 pick this year was absolutely shut down in half the games by good CB's. He had like 5 or 6 big games but was non-existent in most losses. Bills fans want to blame that on Marrone for not getting him the ball but what really happened is that Watkins couldn't get open. I'm going to have to defer to the 3 borderline HOF GM's that love Marrone and our own HOF RB who loves him as well and not some spineless troll at the daily news. Good post. Sounds like Whaley was going to push Marrone out of the door sooner then later. I never had a problem with the way he left Buffalo but that confirmed it for me. How could you blame the guy for sticking it to them for 4mil when: A) the terms were agreed upon by both parties when the contract was signed B) you get jerked around by your GM for a season and can't coach the way you want to coach because you're not being supplied the proper groceries The bit about him wanting to bring in a veteran earlier is a HUGE green flag for me. It shows that he is committed to making sure the Young QB is EARNING his playing time, and has shown that he will pull him if he's not getting enough out of him. A guy like him also has a clue about building an OL, something we sorely need if we're ever going to have the offense we all dream of..... I have to say, the positives are starting to outweigh the negatives for me. I said earlier that my hunch is that he will be our new HC, but I just hope he doesn't come here with that Conservative BS!!!!
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Post by bxjetfan on Jan 4, 2015 23:03:48 GMT -5
Please everyone take the time to go read the Bills fan forums. There front office is in shambles. At the end of training camp Marrone got into a screaming match with Bills president Russ Brandon and GM Doug Whaley. He was very upset that they waited so long to bring in a competent veteran QB when he had been begging them to do so since before the season. The front office also brought in a guy like Mike Williams, who Marrone kicked off of his Syracuse team, and didn't bother to consult with Marrone about acquiring him. Marrone was an offensive line guru and the Bills drafted 3 offensive linemen, all tackles. The Bills had 9 offensive linemen on their entire team, 6 of them were tackles. Marrone has said in the past that the only way to move players around is from the inside out (meaning moving a guy from guard to tackle). But since all he had was tackles he had to play a tackle at RG and that hurt their team badly. The Bills are going into this off-season needing two starting guards b/c of how bad their guard play was this year. My theory is that Marrone wanted Martin at their pick and new they could get another WR in the 2nd round or even trade back into the first round to select Benjamin without much dropoff in production. Marrone was not hired by Whaley, he was hired by Buddy Nix prior to him stepping down as GM. Whaley and Marrone have never been on the same page and that has been widely reported in Buffalo since before the season. Since I live in Rochester and my wife is a die hard Bills fan I have seen most of their games. The Bills got much better production out of their offense than Marrone is getting credit for. They turned a journeyman QB into a guy who threw 18 td's and 12 int all while having zero running game to speak of. Their big #1 pick this year was absolutely shut down in half the games by good CB's. He had like 5 or 6 big games but was non-existent in most losses. Bills fans want to blame that on Marrone for not getting him the ball but what really happened is that Watkins couldn't get open. I'm going to have to defer to the 3 borderline HOF GM's that love Marrone and our own HOF RB who loves him as well and not some spineless troll at the daily news. Is this a defense of Marrone? How is someone who gets into screaming matches with his management and can't get what he wants from them, because they apparently have no respect for him, a positive? And whose fault is it that Watkins couldn't get open if not the coach's? I don't know if Marrone would be a good coach or not, but hiring this guy first AND then the GM would just be stupid. I'm not keen on the guy but unless Woody announces the GM/HC hirings at the same time and these guys think they can work together he's a moron in my book.
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Post by carlito1171 on Jan 4, 2015 23:09:35 GMT -5
Is this a defense of Marrone? How is someone who gets into screaming matches with his management and can't get what he wants from them, because they apparently have no respect for him, a positive? And whose fault is it that Watkins couldn't get open if not the coach's? I don't know if Marrone would be a good coach or not, but hiring this guy first AND then the GM would just be stupid. I'm not keen on the guy but unless Woody announces the GM/HC hirings at the same time and these guys think they can work together he's a moron in my book. I'm starting to lean towards Pace or Maccagnan and Marrone being introduced at the same time very soon. The Jets have interviewed Anthony Lynn and Rod Graves for the HC and GM spots. They've fulfilled the Rooney rule AND interviewed an in-house candidate for each position. They can wrap this up as soon as they feel like it.....
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Post by jetstream23 on Jan 4, 2015 23:21:25 GMT -5
Marrone would be an upgrade in some areas and a downgrade in others, just like Rex was to Mangini and Mangini was to Herm.
He probably has a higher floor than Rex, meaning he won't lose some games that he shouldn't to lesser opponents. But I don't think he'll overachieve much or strike fear into superior opponents. He has a lower ceiling in my opinion. On the whole I just don't see Marrone being an upgrade to what we had and would rather take a chance on an unproven, but possible home run candidate like Quinn.
I'm very meh on Marrone. If we want a safe, 9-7 kinda guy who occasionally makes a playoff push then great. I'd rather go 6-10 a couple of times when the roster is in shambles and then make a deep, hard push (TWSS) to an AFC Title every once in a while. But that's just me. At best I think Marrone is a Marvin Lewis caliber HC.
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Post by RayRay1 on Jan 4, 2015 23:50:15 GMT -5
Please everyone take the time to go read the Bills fan forums. There front office is in shambles. At the end of training camp Marrone got into a screaming match with Bills president Russ Brandon and GM Doug Whaley. He was very upset that they waited so long to bring in a competent veteran QB when he had been begging them to do so since before the season. The front office also brought in a guy like Mike Williams, who Marrone kicked off of his Syracuse team, and didn't bother to consult with Marrone about acquiring him. Marrone was an offensive line guru and the Bills drafted 3 offensive linemen, all tackles. The Bills had 9 offensive linemen on their entire team, 6 of them were tackles. Marrone has said in the past that the only way to move players around is from the inside out (meaning moving a guy from guard to tackle). But since all he had was tackles he had to play a tackle at RG and that hurt their team badly. The Bills are going into this off-season needing two starting guards b/c of how bad their guard play was this year. My theory is that Marrone wanted Martin at their pick and new they could get another WR in the 2nd round or even trade back into the first round to select Benjamin without much dropoff in production. Marrone was not hired by Whaley, he was hired by Buddy Nix prior to him stepping down as GM. Whaley and Marrone have never been on the same page and that has been widely reported in Buffalo since before the season. Since I live in Rochester and my wife is a die hard Bills fan I have seen most of their games. The Bills got much better production out of their offense than Marrone is getting credit for. They turned a journeyman QB into a guy who threw 18 td's and 12 int all while having zero running game to speak of. Their big #1 pick this year was absolutely shut down in half the games by good CB's. He had like 5 or 6 big games but was non-existent in most losses. Bills fans want to blame that on Marrone for not getting him the ball but what really happened is that Watkins couldn't get open. I'm going to have to defer to the 3 borderline HOF GM's that love Marrone and our own HOF RB who loves him as well and not some spineless troll at the daily news.
Outstanding post!!
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Post by RayRay1 on Jan 4, 2015 23:52:43 GMT -5
Is this a defense of Marrone? How is someone who gets into screaming matches with his management and can't get what he wants from them, because they apparently have no respect for him, a positive? And whose fault is it that Watkins couldn't get open if not the coach's? You are obviously clueless about the working of a front office. If your coach wants a specific type of player or players to fit his scheme and as a GM you don't listen to him and bring in guys he doesn't want you're either sabotaging him or dumb. A GM and Head Coach have to be on the same page when it comes to personnel. It's the GM's responsibility to bring in players that will fit the coaches scheme. I think the Bills GM purposely undermined Marrone b/c he assumed he would be fired at the end of the year b/c of the impending ownership change. You keep spewing this rhetoric that Marrone is a "weakling" when you have no clue what you are talking about. 99% of what people say about him flies directly in the face of your obvious agenda. The only people saying negative things are Bills media members, who have an agenda, and the Daily News. Way to align yourself with Mehta, let me know how that works out for you. Bam! +11111
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Post by RayRay1 on Jan 4, 2015 23:59:09 GMT -5
Just look at this objectively... Marrone was hired by a GM in Buffalo who then stepped down 4 months later. You've now been working with a GM for almost two years that never hired you and you don't particularly agree with. And now new ownership has now come into play in the past few months. Now, why in the FUCK would you stick around in that situation when the team already agreed to give you an out clause after 2 years and pay you $4 million dollars in the process? Why is hardly anyone seeing this? I have no problem with how he left the team, it's what he did while he was there that I'm talking about. And as it has been laid out several times in this thread by the same person, he was a coach that was undermined by the new GM that didn't hire him, and he had to deal with an ownership change and a front office that did pretty much all they could to force Marrone out the door. It's amazing how this goes right over your head.
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Post by rangerous on Jan 5, 2015 6:22:39 GMT -5
I don't think anyone is questioning Watkins ability, it's the fact that they traded 2 firsts and a fourth to get him in what was heralded as one of the deepest wide receiver drafts in history. The trade leaves Buffalo without a first rounder this year. If they were a receiver away from being a contender it may have made sense, but they have numerous holes that not having this years first will hurt. i think that's the whole point. granted watkins is a very good wr but so are a ton of guys who came after. trading a fairly high first rounder plus a 4th to trade up a few spots seems pretty hefty. what does the draft weighting schedule say?
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Post by morite on Jan 5, 2015 13:49:55 GMT -5
Bill Walsh was not the Bill Walsh we know and love until he landed Montana. No one gave him an NFL head coaching chance for years, and when it finally did, Montana fell into his lap. Montana?? Short, noodle-armed Montana, drafted in the 3rd round?? And what about Belidick? Really? Along comes Tom Brady...in the 6th round. Do you think we'd have 3 rings with Bill as the head coach of the Jets? Do you think Brady would be MVP of the league if the Jets drafted him? How many head coaches have consistently winning records and bring home championships with mediocre players? How many mediocre players bring home championships for "great" coaches?
My point is, you surround a Marrone, a Quinn, a Schwartz, a whoever (yes, even a Rex Ryan) with quality players (many of whom are not going to be found in the 1st or 2nd rounds), their chances of success goes up considerably. No guarantees either way, but...you need to right blend of coaches and players to be successful. We have not had that combination in many moons. I'm excited we get another shot to start over again.
I hope that Casserly and Wolf advise Woody to make the right choices here, based upon successful football criteria and nothing else.
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