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Post by 2foolish on Mar 22, 2016 7:40:04 GMT -5
Yea for God...
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Post by DDNYjets on Mar 22, 2016 8:47:23 GMT -5
First and foremost (before I go political) thoughts and prayers to the victims and their families.
May God help them.
Because their governments haven't.
Wake the fuck up. Anybody care about pouring water on someone's head now?
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Post by Ff2 on Mar 22, 2016 8:52:01 GMT -5
First and foremost (before I go political) thoughts and prayers to the victims and their families. May God help them. Because their governments haven't. Wake the fuck up. Anybody care about pouring water on someone's head now? If your asking if anyone is now in favor of torturing people believed to have information about terrorism in the attempt to gain accurate information, I care about it. |
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Post by DDNYjets on Mar 22, 2016 9:00:21 GMT -5
First and foremost (before I go political) thoughts and prayers to the victims and their families. May God help them. Because their governments haven't. Wake the fuck up. Anybody care about pouring water on someone's head now? If your asking if anyone is now in favor of torturing people believed to have information about terrorism in the attempt to gain accurate information, I care about it. You'll evolve. |
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Post by Ff2 on Mar 22, 2016 9:01:56 GMT -5
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Post by DDNYjets on Mar 22, 2016 9:12:50 GMT -5
Unfortunately it has become political. For every NYT, Mother Jones, HuffPost article I can find an interview with a CIA officer saying the interrogations were vital. I made up my mind for myself. And frankly, I dont even consider waterboarding torture. And I now laugh when I see those 15 year old videos and pictures of Gitmo. The place has become a resort. |
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Post by Ff2 on Mar 22, 2016 9:36:44 GMT -5
Unfortunately it has become political. For every NYT, Mother Jones, HuffPost article I can find an interview with a CIA officer saying the interrogations were vital. I made up my mind for myself. And frankly, I dont even consider waterboarding torture. And I now laugh when I see those 15 year old videos and pictures of Gitmo. The place has become a resort. Oh so CIA officers say they were vital? I'm on board then. |
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Post by DDNYjets on Mar 22, 2016 10:14:26 GMT -5
Unfortunately it has become political. For every NYT, Mother Jones, HuffPost article I can find an interview with a CIA officer saying the interrogations were vital. I made up my mind for myself. And frankly, I dont even consider waterboarding torture. And I now laugh when I see those 15 year old videos and pictures of Gitmo. The place has become a resort. Oh so CIA officers say they were vital? I'm on board then. The problem is there was a report that came from the Democrats and a report that came from the Republicans. What Democrats call torture the Republicans call interrogation. The CIA said it helped, the Senate disagreed. Not to mention it was a lame duck session for the Democratic Senate majority at the time. Do I think the CIA can overstate things to benefit themselves? Sure, just like anyone else can. Politics has infected every branch and agency of our government. But I am going to lean towards their side instead of going with a bunch of people who sit on their asses in Washington. |
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Post by Warfish on Mar 22, 2016 11:05:07 GMT -5
And frankly, I dont even consider waterboarding torture. Spoken like a man comfortable in the knowledge that he'll never experience the torture he's more than happy to inflict on others, without due process, without human rights, without defense and without any chance to prove his or her innocence. We can agree, terrorists are evil and should be punished for the crimes. The problem is one of identification. Half the people at Gitmo were sent there not for fighting or terrorism, but because one random person is Afghanistan didn't like Bob, so told the Americans Bob was with the Taliban, so Bob was arrested, tortured and like most who are tortured, said whatever had to be said to make it stop. It's well documented the torture intel did nothing in the so-called "War on Terror". When will we learn that imperialism, carpet bombing, economic exploitation, propping up of Dictators for our own interests and murder will never solve the problems in the Middle East? There must be a better way, because clearly this way isn't working at all, things are only getting worse, every day after day. |
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Post by 2foolish on Mar 22, 2016 11:29:35 GMT -5
And frankly, I dont even consider waterboarding torture. Spoken like a man comfortable in the knowledge that he'll never experience the torture he's more than happy to inflict on others, without due process, without human rights, without defense and without any chance to prove his or her innocence.We can agree, terrorists are evil and should be punished for the crimes. The problem is one of identification. Half the people at Gitmo were sent there not for fighting or terrorism, but because one random person is Afghanistan didn't like Bob, so told the Americans Bob was with the Taliban, so Bob was arrested, tortured and like most who are tortured, said whatever had to be said to make it stop. It's well documented the torture intel did nothing in the so-called "War on Terror". When will we learn that imperialism, carpet bombing, economic exploitation, propping up of Dictators for our own interests and murder will never solve the problems in the Middle East? There must be a better way, because clearly this way isn't working at all, things are only getting worse, every day after day. lol...with that avatar u post this?...u are a wildman...i wanna party with you... |
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Post by 2foolish on Mar 22, 2016 11:30:43 GMT -5
commie pinkos rags...or is it pinko commie...i can never get it right... |
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Post by DDNYjets on Mar 22, 2016 12:21:55 GMT -5
And frankly, I dont even consider waterboarding torture. Spoken like a man comfortable in the knowledge that he'll never experience the torture he's more than happy to inflict on others, without due process, without human rights, without defense and without any chance to prove his or her innocence. We can agree, terrorists are evil and should be punished for the crimes. The problem is one of identification. Half the people at Gitmo were sent there not for fighting or terrorism, but because one random person is Afghanistan didn't like Bob, so told the Americans Bob was with the Taliban, so Bob was arrested, tortured and like most who are tortured, said whatever had to be said to make it stop. It's well documented the torture intel did nothing in the so-called "War on Terror". When will we learn that imperialism, carpet bombing, economic exploitation, propping up of Dictators for our own interests and murder will never solve the problems in the Middle East? There must be a better way, because clearly this way isn't working at all, things are only getting worse, every day after day. You're right. I am very comfortable I will never be waterboarded. For the same reason why I am comfortable I will never be shot by the police. I obey the laws, do not hang with undesirables and acknowledge authority. I agree that how we detained terrorists and went about treating them was far from perfect. But I also acknowledge that we were dealing in a grey area that was fairly new. And as time went on I think there were improvements to the system and we did learn from mistakes. Time is of the essence in a lot of these situations and we ask our intelligence community to make an almost impossible decision between our safety and the liberty of others. There is no right way to go about this. Of course in a perfect world we would give due process. There is no way to deal with the middle east. But ignoring it is definitely not the answer. At least it isnt anymore. I think that ship has sailed. We need to do what we think will be in our best interests while taking the interest of other countries into consideration. Basically we need to figure out what evils we can live with and which ones we cannot. |
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Post by Warfish on Mar 22, 2016 12:52:01 GMT -5
You're right. I am very comfortable I will never be waterboarded. For the same reason why I am comfortable I will never be shot by the police. I obey the laws, do not hang with undesirables and acknowledge authority. Because police/millitary never, ever, arrest, detain or otherwise abuse innocent people. Only th eguilty, am I right? Lol. No excuse for torture. Yes, we stopped torturing people. Sure there is, don't torture. It doesn't work. apparently the only people who don;t understand this are Republicans and Terrorists. I'm sure that would of comfort to you if it were your due process nor provided. Hey, it's not a perfect world after all. So first we fuck it up beyond all recognition, then the reason we can't back out is because it's so fucked up. Wow. No. We need to stop pretending OUR interests trumpo everything, including basic human rights. We created this mess because all we cared about was our own VERY short-term interests. Once again, it's the difference between selfishness and collective thinking. If we ever thought for a second about the people we abused and the countries we abused, maybe we wouldn't be here today. If you can live with evil, you are evil. Be assured, the terrorists asked themselves the same questions, and this is the result. You really want to be like them and say "well, we had no other options so we lived with evil". Thats exactly the same rationalization terrorists use, the have no ability to fight us strait up, so this is the evil they're willing to accept. It's a round and round process and degenerating evil. |
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Post by DDNYjets on Mar 22, 2016 13:23:57 GMT -5
Of course they do. But I like my chances. Chances that are only helped by my own actions.
That is your opinion and your definition of torture. Fair enough.
Or we are a lot better at covering it up.
Or maybe we just drone them and their families before we even get a chance to.
And the CIA. Not getting information from KSM or some other terrorists is not proof it doesnt work. Just like when one of our brave men or women doesnt give in to interrogation. It only needs to work once. All you need to do is crack one nut.
Pretty much. I never suggested any of this was good.
Our interests do trump everything. Whether that is right or wrong frankly doesnt matter. Not when you have a country to run.
But we are here today. And there are no time machines. We need to acknowledge the fuck up and move forward the best we can. And we will fuck up again because that is what happens in a fucked up situation.
What options do we have? You said it yourself there is nothing we can do and it is only getting worse. Letting Saddam stay in power would have been the lesser of two evils. He killed his own people but he also killed the terrorists. Same for Gaddafi.
War is criminal and the world has evil in it. Gotta put the big girl panties on and deal with it.
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Post by Warfish on Mar 22, 2016 14:31:58 GMT -5
[Of course they do. But I like my chances. Chances that are only helped by my own actions. Actually, your actions have very little to do with it if you are wrongly accused. actually, thats the international standard for torture. Only the U.S., and like Iran, North Korea and the like, disagree with it. Because their families (and whomever else may be within 1,000 yards) are guilty simply by beaing nearby? Would you be so quick to have someone attack with an area weapon killing all within a certain range, guilty or not? Because that's exactly what Terrorists do. A CIA who broke international law, a CIA covering it's own ass? That CIA? Same CIA who launched Bay of Pigs CIA? They're record isn't so good as to be taken at face value and we both know it. Credit to you, you are a great representation of the American electorate. "Fuck it, what else can we do, pass the Nacho cheese". Collective thinking IS selfish thinking when you realize that "good for all" makes for a better world than "really good for me, shit for everyone else". Way we're going, Donald Trump et. al. we'll fuck up a whole lot worse than before. Break the cycle. There is plenty we can do about that does not involve torture, bombings or corporate-supporting Imperialism and constant efforts of regime-change. Like leaving other countries the fuck alone for a change. They want a shitty despot, let um' have it. Despot fucks with us, start a REAL War, win war, get the fuck out. Rinse, repeat. A viewpoint held only by white, male, privileged Americans with enough hubris to believe things never change, and it can never happen to them. Understand, you're lot in life has vastly more to do with where and to whom you are born, than ANY actions you'll ever take in your entire lifetime. The rare exceptions simply prove the general rule. |
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