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Post by Ff2 on Jun 16, 2016 8:37:37 GMT -5
"I will be meeting with the NRA, who has endorsed me, about not allowing people on the terrorist watch list, or the no fly list, to buy guns." Donald Trump.
Not an anti-Trump post...not anti-gun...could be a number of industries or a number of pols. just a thought about how low we've sunk.
Someone running for President has to meet with a lobbying group before taking a stand on an issue.
And he's the "non-establishment" candidate. At least he's honest, I guess. I'm sure Hillary does her business behind close doors.
Were all fooked.
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Post by DDNYjets on Jun 16, 2016 9:24:39 GMT -5
Depends on how you look at it. The NRA is not just any lobby like oil or pharma. They do deserve respect. They represent millions of people on one of the main pillars of liberty as defined by our founders.
I would say that is democracy. Trump is a negotiator. He is going to meet with them and discuss the issue. I think this is a much better approach that bastardizing/demonizing them and the millions that support them in public like many on the left do. I know its hard to believe but there was a time when politicians actually had respect for one another and made deals.
My guess is Trump already has the support of many NRA members on this issue. And when you boil it down this is more of an intelligence issue than a gun control issue.
Here is the NRA's response:
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Post by Ff2 on Jun 16, 2016 9:59:54 GMT -5
Regardless of size or issue they ARE a lobby.
Do we now have to "make a deal" on all issues...or cant we have an opinion independent of that?
We don't have leaders anymore. We have constant campaigners.
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Post by Trades on Jun 16, 2016 10:07:39 GMT -5
Regardless of size or issue they ARE a lobby. Do we now have to "make a deal" on all issues...or cant we have an opinion independent of that? We don't have leaders anymore. We have constant campaigners. Would it be better if he made the decision in a vacuum? I would prefer he listen to people than just make a knee jerk reaction before understanding the finer points of an issue. I would he will have advisers who would be on the other side to give him the best information to make an informed decision. I also think that the position of the NRA that DD posted is VERY realistic, legal and clear. |
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Post by DDNYjets on Jun 16, 2016 11:24:09 GMT -5
Regardless of size or issue they ARE a lobby. Do we now have to "make a deal" on all issues...or cant we have an opinion independent of that? We don't have leaders anymore. We have constant campaigners. Yes they are a lobby. But they reflect the opinions of many Americans and IMO are more palatable than the real special interest lobbies that only cater to the uber rich and connected. Just an opinon. Our system is built around being able to make deals and compromise. Every law is essentially a compromise bc to pass it you usually need votes from both sides (unless its the ACA of course). I think that is the best way for things to get done. Both sides give and take a little and come up with something everyone can live with. We dont get much of that today because leaders would rather fight things out in the press rather than roll up their sleeves and get things done behind closed doors. I agree with you on that. Somewhere along the line politics has become a career where you have people coming straight out of the ivy league and into politics. They "serve" their country while serving themselves with all the contacts they make. |
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Post by Ff2 on Jun 16, 2016 12:37:23 GMT -5
Regardless of size or issue they ARE a lobby. Do we now have to "make a deal" on all issues...or cant we have an opinion independent of that? We don't have leaders anymore. We have constant campaigners. Would it be better if he made the decision in a vacuum? I would prefer he listen to people than just make a knee jerk reaction before understanding the finer points of an issue. I would he will have advisers who would be on the other side to give him the best information to make an informed decision. I also think that the position of the NRA that DD posted is VERY realistic, legal and clear. Yes, that why Hilary meets with WS bankers. Research!  But we both know thats not why he's meeting with them. After the meeting they both will announce what a wonderful productive meeting they had. And will have decided on the language they both can live with for the campaign. Wink, wink and we move on. When's the meeting with the other side to get their input? |
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Post by DDNYjets on Jun 16, 2016 12:54:12 GMT -5
Would it be better if he made the decision in a vacuum? I would prefer he listen to people than just make a knee jerk reaction before understanding the finer points of an issue. I would he will have advisers who would be on the other side to give him the best information to make an informed decision. I also think that the position of the NRA that DD posted is VERY realistic, legal and clear. Yes, that why Hilary meets with WS bankers. Research! But we both know thats not why he's meeting with them. After the meeting they both will announce what a wonderful productive meeting they had. And will have decided on the language they both can live with for the campaign. Wink, wink and we move on. When's the meeting with the other side to get their input? Their input is known. Their views are the "common sense" ones and everyone else is baby killers. |
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Post by BEAC0NJET on Jun 16, 2016 13:57:11 GMT -5
Depends on how you look at it. The NRA is not just any lobby like oil or pharma. They do deserve respect. They represent millions of people on one of the main pillars of liberty as defined by our founders. I would say that is democracy. Trump is a negotiator. He is going to meet with them and discuss the issue. I think this is a much better approach that bastardizing/demonizing them and the millions that support them in public like many on the left do. I know its hard to believe but there was a time when politicians actually had respect for one another and made deals. My guess is Trump already has the support of many NRA members on this issue. And when you boil it down this is more of an intelligence issue than a gun control issue. Here is the NRA's response: They do represent millions of people, although if you believe the polls, a majority of those they represent were open to some compromises on background checks, etc, yet the leadership lobbies otherwise. Much like many unions, for comparison, I question if NRA leadership is truly representative of the majority of their members. |
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Post by BEAC0NJET on Jun 16, 2016 14:57:28 GMT -5
Regardless of size or issue they ARE a lobby. Do we now have to "make a deal" on all issues...or cant we have an opinion independent of that? We don't have leaders anymore. We have constant campaigners.
That's the problem. We elect representatives, and the moment they're sworn in, they work on staying in office. And taking on the NRA is electoral suicide, especially in an election year. |
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Post by BEAC0NJET on Jun 16, 2016 14:58:59 GMT -5
Here is the NRA's response: Thoroughly investigated.... for three days, then its a free pass to buy a gun.  |
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Post by DDNYjets on Jun 16, 2016 17:02:05 GMT -5
Depends on how you look at it. The NRA is not just any lobby like oil or pharma. They do deserve respect. They represent millions of people on one of the main pillars of liberty as defined by our founders. I would say that is democracy. Trump is a negotiator. He is going to meet with them and discuss the issue. I think this is a much better approach that bastardizing/demonizing them and the millions that support them in public like many on the left do. I know its hard to believe but there was a time when politicians actually had respect for one another and made deals. My guess is Trump already has the support of many NRA members on this issue. And when you boil it down this is more of an intelligence issue than a gun control issue. Here is the NRA's response: They do represent millions of people, although if you believe the polls, a majority of those they represent were open to some compromises on background checks, etc, yet the leadership lobbies otherwise. Much like many unions, for comparison, I question if NRA leadership is truly representative of the majority of their members. To judge that fairly you have to take a look at the entire legislation that was proposed rather than just a single aspect. And frankly the anti-guns libs had a hard time even getting the support of their red-state democratic colleagues for those proposals. |
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Post by DDNYjets on Jun 16, 2016 17:04:29 GMT -5
Here is the NRA's response: Thoroughly investigated.... for three days, then its a free pass to buy a gun. Thats up to the FBI. Not the NRA or the gun shop. |
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Post by BEAC0NJET on Jun 17, 2016 10:47:38 GMT -5
They do represent millions of people, although if you believe the polls, a majority of those they represent were open to some compromises on background checks, etc, yet the leadership lobbies otherwise. Much like many unions, for comparison, I question if NRA leadership is truly representative of the majority of their members. To judge that fairly you have to take a look at the entire legislation that was proposed rather than just a single aspect. And frankly the anti-guns libs had a hard time even getting the support of their red-state democratic colleagues for those proposals. True. I dont recall all the points in the 2013 background check bill other than it would have extended background checks to sales at gun shows and all Internet sales, while exempting most private transactions between families and friends and was authored by a Rep and a Dem, both with high ratings from the NRA. But to the other point, only four democrats voted against the 2013 background check bill. 3 of the 4 faced midterm elections coming up - Montana, Arkansas and Alaska. Wanna bet they didnt want to rock the boat and oppose the NRA? Baucas, of Montana, "for one, is keenly aware of the political cost of voting for gun control. He nearly lost his seat voting for the assault weapons ban in 1994, eking out the tightest victory of his 35-year Senate career. He is now the only Senate Democrat with an 'A+' rating from the NRA." If you believe the polls at the time, "An overwhelming majority of Americans — 86% — support the measure, according to a Washington Post-ABC News poll released last week. That number includes 90% of Democrats and 84% of Republicans, with majorities in each group saying that they strongly support the measure. Even among members of the National Rifle Association, 74% support criminal background checks for all gun sales, according to another survey. " If you believe those numbers, then our representatives and the NRA are not representing the will of the people. |
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Post by BEAC0NJET on Jun 17, 2016 11:10:24 GMT -5
Thoroughly investigated.... for three days, then its a free pass to buy a gun. That's up to the FBI. Not the NRA or the gun shop. Well... default proceed was part of House Amendment 390, the first draft of which allowed for seven days, passed by the Legislative branch, backed by the NRA, and only enforced by the FBI to be accurate, correct? So its not really up to the FBI. The NRA-influenced law is telling the FBI what the parameters are. George Gekas was in the NRAs pocket. If the FBI doesn't have the resources to complete the checks in three days, does it make sense to just let someone have a gun and hope for the best? I would think extending the time period a few more days is a somewhat reasonable compromise? A little more radical would be to "default reset" and restart the process if 72 hours isnt enough. Its a system designed for speed and not necessarily accuracy. If my boss gives me a project that would take 7 days to complete, but I only have 3 days to do it, things will get missed. I guess you could say its up to the FBI to staff appropriately to meet the demand, but demand fluctuates, and seems to spike after these incidents, and I dont think most of us want to suggest MORE gov't hiring. Its easy for the NRA to say "its on the FBI" but when you have a major hand in creating the rules, its a bit hypocritical to say? |
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