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Post by Mond the Bagnificient on Jul 21, 2016 7:18:45 GMT -5
At this point, the coup seems staged by Edrogan. Right after the coup is dispersed, he rounds up 600 soldiers... BUT 1000 judges!!! C'mon! The Reichstag fire right here. I'm sorry but that is utter bullshit. DOn't get me wrong it is a very popular view here in Turkey (about 20 percent believe it last I saw) as well but its bullshit nonetheless. Because that point of view accepts as fact that Erdoğan is some omnipotent force who can play puppetmaster with a nation of 77 million half of whom hates him with a passion and the other half adores him. It's just not possible. The coup was unbelievably fortunate for him but I have no doubt whatsoever that it was a real coup. I'm not sure if you saw the footage of civilans being bombed, tanks running over cars, snipers killing people, of course the Anti-Erdoğan rhetoric says that the deaths played right into his hands and he doesn't care about who dies and who doesn't. But its not that simple; 1- A few of the dead were very very close to him. One was his personal friend since before his days as the mayor of istanbul and the other was that friend's 16 year old son, one was the brother of one his closest advisors. Even if this was staged I don't believe for a minute that someone in his that close circle would not have known about it and gotten killed while trying to fight it off.But admittedly this is weak. 2- He didn't need the coup for this purge, nor for the State of Emergency that was declared last night. There have been many more terror attacks in Turkey than in France in the past year and there is also an armed insurgency/war going on in the south east of the country. There was basis to declare a state of emergency prior to the coup. Also no one except the Gülenists would have blinked if this was happening to them even without the coup. They may be the one constant in Turkish society. Everyone hates them. 3- The purge is breathtaking in its scope. No disputing that. But if you only look at the numbers it will be misleading. The Gülenists main objective has always been to infiltrate the Turkish State for the past 40 years. This is not some upstart organization that has been doing this since Erdogan took over 15 years ago. There are testimonies of former Gülenists that declare that they were given the questions to military high school from as far back as 1986. They say that they were thought different ways of praying etc. so as not to stick out in a staunchly secular institution. So its probable if not conceivable that these people are this numerous. About ten years ago there were two cases in Turkey calles "Ergenekon" and " Sledgehammer". At the time these were told to be people in the military who were planning a coup and got caught. Many people, myself included, who are sick of the Turkish military's appetite to stick its nose in politics were too quick to accept these as facts. But then gradually it became clear that the "evidence" against these people were mostly fabricated and almost all of them have been exhonorated and returned to active service. These were mostly the staunchly Kemalist Secular old guard. And the people who replaced them were mostly responsible for the coup last week. Now that these guys will be purged, guess who will be back to man those posts? Yes some will be loyal to Erdogan but he doesn't have a power base in the military that is so extensive that he can fill every hole. Out of necessity he will have to work with Kemalists. There are also cultural differences. In turkey judges and prosecuters are not elected but essentially appointed by the state after they pass an exam. So you have to think of these people as any other civil servant rather than a judge. 4- How do you convince the coup plotters to essentially make a kamikaze run. Because if this was staged they know they're getting fucked in the end, why would they go along? These are not some idiot 20 year old suicide bombers doped up high as a kite or religous nuts. These are 3 4 star generals, admirals, Colonels etc. with families. Why the fuck would they go along with a script like this?So yes in the end Erdoğan got stronger but not because this was a false flag op but because he won. And not so much that it makes a real difference because he was strong anyway. But as an unintended consequence I think the Kemalists will also get stronger altough it remains to be seen how much. The real question is what our relations with the US and EU are going to be like. Because everyone in Turkey from the Kemalists to Erdogan supporters to the Commies to the Kurds agree on one thing; that Gülen was a tool of the US/CIA. He fled there when he was about to be interned by the Kemalists in 99 and he almost got kicked out when it was discovered he lied on his visa application or something when the former İstanbul or Ankara not sure which bureau chief of the CIA stepped in to get him a green car in 2007. If the US stands by him I son't like our odds of staying with the western alliance. We may be seeing Erdogan become much closer with Putin in the coming days if that situation is not resolved. And that is when Turkey will become uninhabitable for people like me. I still think he needed the coup for the purge, maybe not for Turks, but for the International community. If there is no coup and he starts rounding up 50K judges, professors, etc., the world goes bonkers. Right now, he's getting from gruff from the Germans, but that's about it. And from what I hear, we're not deporting the PA guy.
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Post by The Turk on Jul 21, 2016 7:42:28 GMT -5
I still think he needed the coup for the purge, maybe not for Turks, but for the International community. If there is no coup and he starts rounding up 50K judges, professors, etc., the world goes bonkers. Right now, he's getting from gruff from the Germans, but that's about it. And from what I hear, we're not deporting the PA guy. I'don't expect you to. The best case I'm hoping for is that you wash your hands of him and send him to I don't know panama haiti or someplace where we can go get him, like you guys did with Abdullah Ocalan. Wink wink nod nod agreement where everyone can save face. Or maybe stir something into his drink and say "awww we were just going to hand him over!". But if he keeps living in PA like nothing happened there will be fallout and I don't see the benefit for the US to alienate Turkey for the sake of one old man who for some reason likes to cry a lot while giving a sermon. You tube him he's really funny.
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Post by Mond the Bagnificient on Jul 21, 2016 7:47:27 GMT -5
I still think he needed the coup for the purge, maybe not for Turks, but for the International community. If there is no coup and he starts rounding up 50K judges, professors, etc., the world goes bonkers. Right now, he's getting from gruff from the Germans, but that's about it. And from what I hear, we're not deporting the PA guy. I'don't expect you to. The best case I'm hoping for is that you wash your hands of him and send him to I don't know panama haiti or someplace where we can go get him, like you guys did with Abdullah Ocalan. Wink wink nod nod agreement where everyone can save face. But if he keeps living in PA like nothing happened there will be fallout. And I don't see the benefit for the US to alienate Turkey for the sake of one old man. True, it will get messy.. but what's Turkey really going to do? They still want to be part of the EU, no? And it's not like they would pullout of NATO... I know you said Edrogen and Putin may get close, but you have to watch those sneaky Russians.. they haven't given up on the dream of making the Black Sea a Russian lake and bringing back Greek Orthodox supremacy to Constantinople (which is how Russians still call it). But yes, we don't want to shrug off Turkey and have you guys become a new Iran either... tough situation indeed.
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Post by Mond the Bagnificient on Jul 21, 2016 7:49:05 GMT -5
Ha, crying a lot.. sounds like Billy Graham.
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Post by The Turk on Jul 21, 2016 7:58:01 GMT -5
I'don't expect you to. The best case I'm hoping for is that you wash your hands of him and send him to I don't know panama haiti or someplace where we can go get him, like you guys did with Abdullah Ocalan. Wink wink nod nod agreement where everyone can save face. But if he keeps living in PA like nothing happened there will be fallout. And I don't see the benefit for the US to alienate Turkey for the sake of one old man. True, it will get messy.. but what's Turkey really going to do? They still want to be part of the EU, no? And it's not like they would pullout of NATO... I know you said Edrogen and Putin may get close, but you have to watch those sneaky Russians.. they haven't given up on the dream of making the Black Sea a Russian lake and bringing back Greek Orthodox supremacy to Constantinople (which is how Russians still call it). But yes, we don't want to shrug off Turkey and have you guys become a new Iran either... tough situation indeed. This is what I'm most afraid of; Erdoğan trying to play Russia against the US and get us kicked out of the western institutions that we've been a part of for over 60 years. That might touch off a civil war in Turkey. Or it might not and people like me will jsut quitly leave for greener pastures ( more likely). But the rhetoric has been strong, he's been comparing Gülen to Osama Bin Ladin and asking whether the US needed evidence to go and kill him. On the other hand at his core Erdogan is a pragmatist and he knows there will be a price to pay if he tries to change the country's direction. I sincerely don't know. All I know is that this place is going batshit crazy and I need to get out.
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Post by bxjetfan on Jul 21, 2016 9:24:41 GMT -5
Maybe we can scrape some DNA out of Attaturks remains and clone him. That dude was one baaad SOB and I hate seeing what Erdogan is doing to Turkey. My impression is that Erdogan is giving the Mullahs more power while he lines his pockets with money. The economy is doing well so for the most part people are willing to go along. Am I wrong Turk?
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Post by The Turk on Jul 21, 2016 10:00:34 GMT -5
Maybe we can scrape some DNA out of Attaturks remains and clone him. That dude was one baaad SOB and I hate seeing what Erdogan is doing to Turkey. My impression is that Erdogan is giving the Mullahs more power while he lines his pockets with money. The economy is doing well so for the most part people are willing to go along. Am I wrong Turk? I wouldn't say you're wrong but rather the picture is incomplete. Atatürk was a bad MOFO, no question. But the zeitgeist was against him in that he was very influenced by the totalitarianism sweeping through the world in the late 20s and 30s. The Kemalism bears a striking resemblance to National Socialism but without the genocidal tendancies. (The Armenian genocide was before his time Enver and Talat Pashas were the ones mostly responsible for that national disgrace). * He was also a pragmatist. During our War of independence he played the russians against the west beutifully and got us a country out of it. He was very successful in implementing social reforms but what those following him lacked was his sence of pragmatism and they froze the country in a time capsule when he died and did everything they could to keep the country there. Of course time doesn't work like that and demographically the more religous leaning center right started winning elections because well surprise surprise people don2t like to live under oppression. Then the military started overthrowing those governments every 10 years or so which gave us our "unquestioned leader" Erdoğan as a result. Erdoğan first came to power with Abdullah Gül (much more liberal and western centric than him, and who has now been pacified) and they were running on a platform of individual freedoms, democracy for all etc. Similar to the German Christian Democrats. And liberals like myself (not in the US sense of the word, liberals here are closest to libertarians in the US) bought into them. To be fair up till about 2008 they were very liberal, moving Turkey towards EU democrarizing the nation etc. But when they started holding all the power they started doing the same sort of things people were complaining about under the Kemalists but with a religous ferver. Then the liberals jumped ship, which means next to nothing in Turkey, then they had a falling out with Gülen. And her we are. And yes economy is a big part of how he's survived. The idiots in the 90's fucked it up so bad people held onto someone, anyone who could get the economy on track. But its not everything unfortunatly. Personally I want Turkey to be a secular, liberal democracy. And the party that runs on that platform receives approx. %0,15 of the vote. So again with a gun to my head I'd rather have Kemalist autocrats ruling rather than religous autocrats but not the military. I've seen too much brutality from the military to ever want a coup. I grew up in the 80's and there was martial law until I was 8. I knew what a palestinian hanging was and how it was administred before I was 6. I've never been subject to torcher but it was so common place that everyone knew of it. People literally just disappeared in police stations. Just gone. No explanaitons. Nothing. So thank you but no thank you to the military. And mind you, Had Ataturk lived to see the post WWII era I'm sure he would've been more open to change than the idiots that followed him. So your idea is a good one I just wish it was a realistic one. I've left out so much of the story that its not fair but this is a fucking football board and I'm no history teacher so make do.
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Post by bxjetfan on Jul 21, 2016 10:34:52 GMT -5
Turk, when the failed coup was happening the talking heads were saying that it is written in Turkeys Constitution that if the country swings too far towards religion they have to step in. Is this true? It's pretty amazing that Turkey has had so many coups and then they just turn power back over to the people.
Props on saying Armenian genocide and not denying it. Every country has shitty things in their past but you are the first Turk that didn't deny it.
Any chance the Kurds get a little piece of land to call home? Is that being talked about over there?
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Post by The Turk on Jul 22, 2016 2:29:38 GMT -5
Turk, when the failed coup was happening the talking heads were saying that it is written in Turkeys Constitution that if the country swings too far towards religion they have to step in. Is this true? It's pretty amazing that Turkey has had so many coups and then they just turn power back over to the people. Props on saying Armenian genocide and not denying it. Every country has shitty things in their past but you are the first Turk that didn't deny it. Any chance the Kurds get a little piece of land to call home? Is that being talked about over there? No on the first question. There was an Article that has since been changed that said the Military's duty was to defend the republic from all enemies. From which the military understood that any government who strayed too far from "the Atatürk Principles" was fair game as an enemy of the republic. As a lawyer its utter horsedung but this is what they base their coups on. And every time without exception the entity they deposed came back stronger after a few years and also made people like me very wary of the military for reasons I explained above. On the Armenian Genocide: newyorkjetshampur.com/thread/2424/armenian-genocideOn the kurds; No. Not in any sense that they get any land from Turkey. If you had asked me this question 12 months ago I would've been very hopeful of a reconciliation with the kurds. Up until last year the peace process with the kurds was one of Erdoğan's biggest selling points. He made unfathomable headway in kurdish cultural and political rights and making the kurdish problem something we can talk about. But I think the civil war in Syria derailed that process because the Kurds got a little too greedy when they got all of the west's support behind them because of ISIS. They overplayed their hand after they got enough votes to get into the parliament (there is a %10 threshold in Turkey) they got a little too confident and tried to push the government too far. Than the government went all Chuck Norris on them and thus we have the old war back on now. UNtil the situation in Syria is resolved I don't see the conflict with PKK being resolved. And to correct something Turkey is not at war with the "kurds". In fact Mesoud Barzani the president of the Kurdish State in Northern Iraq is best buddies with Erdoğan. Turkey has very very good relations with Northern Iraqi Kurdistan. Also in Turkey Erdoğan is very popular amongst the religous kurds. However the PKK is a different story. I understand they are being seen as some sort of freedom fighters/bastion of secularism and hope for all mankind for the middle east. But they're just terrorists. They kill civilans and are no better than ISIS, IRA, Al Qaida, ETA, ASALA etc..They target civilans just as randomly as the other organisations do. So I have to differnetiate beetween the Kurds, who have been oppressed and are right to demand their rights and basic freedoms from the PKK who are just communist (yes there are still communists in this day and age, go figure) murderers. In fact Barzani's Peshmerge sometimes engage PKK with Turkey. SO as everything else in the Middle East its complicated.
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Post by Sonny Werblin on Jul 22, 2016 14:29:53 GMT -5
I still think he needed the coup for the purge, maybe not for Turks, but for the International community. If there is no coup and he starts rounding up 50K judges, professors, etc., the world goes bonkers. Right now, he's getting from gruff from the Germans, but that's about it. And from what I hear, we're not deporting the PA guy. I'don't expect you to. The best case I'm hoping for is that you wash your hands of him and send him to I don't know panama haiti or someplace where we can go get him, like you guys did with Abdullah Ocalan. Wink wink nod nod agreement where everyone can save face. Or maybe stir something into his drink and say "awww we were just going to hand him over!". But if he keeps living in PA like nothing happened there will be fallout and I don't see the benefit for the US to alienate Turkey for the sake of one old man who for some reason likes to cry a lot while giving a sermon. You tube him he's really funny. From January 2014. this guy is smooth, but it is very clear that he is leading a "movement" because he flat out says he is...
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Post by Sonny Werblin on Jul 22, 2016 14:32:46 GMT -5
Far more Gray than black and white here....
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