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Post by The Tax Returns Are in Kenya on Feb 24, 2015 18:46:33 GMT -5
I'm surprised you have an anti-vaccine stance given that you are entering a medical profession. That's the thing, I'm not. I'm vaccinated and my kids are vaccinated, despite my first having an adverse reaction. That's why I wanted people to actually watch the film. It's not anti-vaccine, it's more about vaccines not being this super-safe, totally effective, benign thing. As soon as you question the safety of vaccines, their mandatory administration, or worse say you have a child you witnessed become injured by them, you're automatically "anti-vaccine", a science-denier or tinfoil hat nutter. Fact is vaccines injure people, just like other medical procedures. The difference is people want them to be compulsory, without the avenue of litigation or administrative liability, unlike other medical procedures. Often the argument of the "greater good" is put forth with an eye towards herd immunity, a concept that is untenable with regards to certain disease processes, not the least of which is the measles vaccine, one where unprotected people can be infected by those shedding the vaccine. Know how many people have died from the measles the last 10 years or so? None, but about 100 have died as a direct result of the vaccine. It's a complex issue too often obfuscated by the likes of people who don't go past a few pages of Google searches. Classic woo tactic; avoid the facts, shift the goalposts and play a sympathy card. Know how many cases of polio are spread overseas? By people shedding the live vaccine components (they still use OPV overseas). Last case like that over here was the one involving a Staten Island parent who contracted it from his daughter's diaper. Case was recently settled a few years ago (millions, I believe). That was decades ago, when you could hold a vaccine manufacturer responsible for making a shoddy product. The SCOTUS put that final nail in the coffin with Wyeth v. Bruesewitz. Like I said, the issue is multi-layered and complex; the article above illustrates just how pervasive the disinformation out there truly is. Great post. Rep given. The part in bold is exactly the point I was making when I said the vaccine argument always comes back to polio - as if all vaccines are equally effective and diseases equally deadly.
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Feb 24, 2015 18:53:26 GMT -5
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Post by PK on Feb 24, 2015 18:53:26 GMT -5
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Feb 24, 2015 19:06:34 GMT -5
Post by Jetworks on Feb 24, 2015 19:06:34 GMT -5
Yet again, avoid the facts and shift the goalposts. Since when are you concerned about what happens outside the borders of this country? How is what happens in a third-world country with disease process X even remotely the same as in a developed country such as the USA? Those deaths would be significantly reduced if vaccine companies were willing to offer free or low-cost vaccines to those countries. Aren't they part of the necessary health axis? That's why the US gave them immunity from prosecution for any adverse effects from their products. Guess that they don't enjoy that sort of indemnity worldwide has something to do with that. How many people died of malaria? We better get a vaccine over here, stat! Good thing Bill and Melinda are on top of that! And what about ebola? Oh, wait that's already coming down the pipe. I'm sure you'll be fine with submitting your whole family to compulsory immunizations, right? I'm being facetious, of course. I'll stop. Hopefully you'll do the same and stick to the facts of the issue, instead of this hyperbole.
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Feb 24, 2015 23:10:30 GMT -5
Post by Trades on Feb 24, 2015 23:10:30 GMT -5
Yet again, avoid the facts and shift the goalposts. Since when are you concerned about what happens outside the borders of this country? How is what happens in a third-world country with disease process X even remotely the same as in a developed country such as the USA? Those deaths would be significantly reduced if vaccine companies were willing to offer free or low-cost vaccines to those countries. Aren't they part of the necessary health axis? That's why the US gave them immunity from prosecution for any adverse effects from their products. Guess that they don't enjoy that sort of indemnity worldwide has something to do with that. How many people died of malaria? We better get a vaccine over here, stat! Good thing Bill and Melinda are on top of that! And what about ebola? Oh, wait that's already coming down the pipe. I'm sure you'll be fine with submitting your whole family to compulsory immunizations, right? I'm being facetious, of course. I'll stop. Hopefully you'll do the same and stick to the facts of the issue, instead of this hyperbole. You mean like this? www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/04/15/pandemic-vaccine_n_849894.htmlI work for a big pharma and they donate tons of time, money and medicine to people that can't afford it. Don't believe all the anti-pharma hype that seems like Scrooge is just sitting on high reaping the profits. If there wasn't a profit to be made then no one would develop the medicines. Are they a completely altruistic business? Of course not and I am sure you don't do your job for free either. And another www.forbes.com/sites/johnlamattina/2013/05/06/even-pharmas-good-deeds-are-criticized/
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Post by Trades on Feb 24, 2015 23:22:20 GMT -5
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Feb 25, 2015 7:57:35 GMT -5
Post by PK on Feb 25, 2015 7:57:35 GMT -5
Yet again, avoid the facts and shift the goalposts. Since when are you concerned about what happens outside the borders of this country? How is what happens in a third-world country with disease process X even remotely the same as in a developed country such as the USA? Those deaths would be significantly reduced if vaccine companies were willing to offer free or low-cost vaccines to those countries. Aren't they part of the necessary health axis? That's why the US gave them immunity from prosecution for any adverse effects from their products. Guess that they don't enjoy that sort of indemnity worldwide has something to do with that. How many people died of malaria? We better get a vaccine over here, stat! Good thing Bill and Melinda are on top of that! And what about ebola? Oh, wait that's already coming down the pipe. I'm sure you'll be fine with submitting your whole family to compulsory immunizations, right? I'm being facetious, of course. I'll stop. Hopefully you'll do the same and stick to the facts of the issue, instead of this hyperbole. My bad. I thought I was presenting a fact. Of course, deaths from measles outside the US are much higher. In fact, death rates are the highest in countries with the lowest immunization rates. Which would seem to show..........the reason deaths are so low in this country is BECAUSE of the vaccine.
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Feb 25, 2015 16:03:18 GMT -5
Post by Jetworks on Feb 25, 2015 16:03:18 GMT -5
Yet again, avoid the facts and shift the goalposts. Since when are you concerned about what happens outside the borders of this country? How is what happens in a third-world country with disease process X even remotely the same as in a developed country such as the USA? Those deaths would be significantly reduced if vaccine companies were willing to offer free or low-cost vaccines to those countries. Aren't they part of the necessary health axis? That's why the US gave them immunity from prosecution for any adverse effects from their products. Guess that they don't enjoy that sort of indemnity worldwide has something to do with that. How many people died of malaria? We better get a vaccine over here, stat! Good thing Bill and Melinda are on top of that! And what about ebola? Oh, wait that's already coming down the pipe. I'm sure you'll be fine with submitting your whole family to compulsory immunizations, right? I'm being facetious, of course. I'll stop. Hopefully you'll do the same and stick to the facts of the issue, instead of this hyperbole. You mean like this? www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/04/15/pandemic-vaccine_n_849894.htmlI work for a big pharma and they donate tons of time, money and medicine to people that can't afford it. Don't believe all the anti-pharma hype that seems like Scrooge is just sitting on high reaping the profits. If there wasn't a profit to be made then no one would develop the medicines. Are they a completely altruistic business? Of course not and I am sure you don't do your job for free either. And another www.forbes.com/sites/johnlamattina/2013/05/06/even-pharmas-good-deeds-are-criticized/The flu vaccine. That's what that article is about. I was talking about the measles vaccine, which makes what you posted largely non-applicable to that one itty-bitty point I made (you must've missed the rest of what I wrote). If Pharma is so full of beneficence, why not bite the bullet and offer vaccines that are made in the interest of health as opposed to profit (i.e., single dose, preservative free)? Would seem like a no-brainer for them seeing as they are basically bulletproof when it comes to lawsuits. But no, it's all about the profit, so they instead enjoy their insulated status from litigation while maximizing profits on the very product they supposedly are looking to help people with? Please tell me you aren't that naive. So spare me the "Pharma assumes all the risks and is altruistic" crap, because nothing could be further from the truth. Your argument that if there wasn't a profit to be made, no one would make medicines should not apply to vaccines as they are presented, by both the industry and the government, as necessary. Additionally, that protection afforded the companies by the government is tax-payer funded and was a direct result of a failure of capitalistic companies of putting forth an unsafe product that could've bankrupted them, thereby endangering the health apparatus. So, again, spare me the Google sound-bites and PR tripe, because it's (mostly) bunk. Ummm, it's pretty easy to be generous when one of your products is mandated by the people who impose your taxes and they give you all but blanket immunity (heh) from any litigation. Take a look at the amount of money the VICP has saved Pharma from the past few decades. Now imagine what that number would have looked like had it been argued in front of a jury as opposed to a Special Master in HHS. Really, you need to question the company drivel, at least a little bit. Yet again, avoid the facts and shift the goalposts. Since when are you concerned about what happens outside the borders of this country? How is what happens in a third-world country with disease process X even remotely the same as in a developed country such as the USA? Those deaths would be significantly reduced if vaccine companies were willing to offer free or low-cost vaccines to those countries. Aren't they part of the necessary health axis? That's why the US gave them immunity from prosecution for any adverse effects from their products. Guess that they don't enjoy that sort of indemnity worldwide has something to do with that. How many people died of malaria? We better get a vaccine over here, stat! Good thing Bill and Melinda are on top of that! And what about ebola? Oh, wait that's already coming down the pipe. I'm sure you'll be fine with submitting your whole family to compulsory immunizations, right? I'm being facetious, of course. I'll stop. Hopefully you'll do the same and stick to the facts of the issue, instead of this hyperbole. My bad. I thought I was presenting a fact. Of course, deaths from measles outside the US are much higher. In fact, death rates are the highest in countries with the lowest immunization rates. Which would seem to show..........the reason deaths are so low in this country is BECAUSE of the vaccine. Derp, putting forth facts in a disingenuous way that wasn't germane to what I posted. But ok. Partly, yes. Sanitation practices play a HUGE role as well (less for measles and varicella, more for polio and Hep B). But I'm not saying vaccines are bad. NO WHERE did I say as much, or even intimate that. What I did say was that the media (and politicians that are responding to this) is driving a false narrative that vaccines are safe and should be mandatory. They will talk out of the other side of their mouths and say that there are exceptions, but we need to get as many vaccinated because some people can't be vaccinated. That's the herd immunity argument. Then I refer everyone to a case that is EXACTLY about that in the above video, wherein that very same exemption is in turn shot down, and somehow no one has a problem with that or the aforementioned "vaccinate everyone" mandate. Sorry, that's asinine. And that you of all people are missing that is a bit surprising. Vaccines are good, for those that can handle getting them, and provided they are administered in a safe, deliberate and thorough manner like any other medical procedure. But they're not. They're administered in places like CVS. By pharmacists. Who have no medical training whatsoever and are relying on boilerplate interview sheets. But hey, let's get all the vitamins off the shelves, they're dangerous!!!
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Feb 25, 2015 16:58:38 GMT -5
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Post by PK on Feb 25, 2015 16:58:38 GMT -5
I didn't mean to put forth facts in an ingenious way, lol. You said 10 people died from measles. I don't think you said just in the US. If you did, then my bad.
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Feb 25, 2015 17:55:56 GMT -5
Post by Jetworks on Feb 25, 2015 17:55:56 GMT -5
I didn't mean to put forth facts in an ingenious way, lol. You said 10 people died from measles. I don't think you said just in the US. If you did, then my bad. It was about 100 from the vaccine, none from the virus. It was in the US, but I didn't specify that, so I'll assume the role of doofus.
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Feb 25, 2015 18:43:21 GMT -5
Post by Trades on Feb 25, 2015 18:43:21 GMT -5
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Feb 25, 2015 18:46:11 GMT -5
Post by Jetworks on Feb 25, 2015 18:46:11 GMT -5
Put up the "I can't send my kids to school with peanuts" one to complete the logic fail.
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Feb 25, 2015 20:25:34 GMT -5
Post by thebigragu on Feb 25, 2015 20:25:34 GMT -5
Who would you start with? You can't choose the victims of a plague. Id start with the Middle East and North Africa. Then hipster Brooklyn. LOL Agree , Start in Brooklyn though so I can move back home
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Apr 2, 2015 17:43:33 GMT -5
Post by rangerous on Apr 2, 2015 17:43:33 GMT -5
Without GMOs we could never hope to feed the people of the world. Hippies are against chemical fertilizers and pesticides yet GMOs allow for less use of both and less water for growing our food. There has never been anything proven stating that GMOs are harmful and most of the crap about vaccines has been proven wrong. Not getting vaccinated is MUCH more dangerous than getting vaccinated. Yes the flu vaccine is a choice but things like polio devastate unvaccinated populations. You're using an extremely broad definition of 'modified'. Hybridization is not the same as genetic modification, it doesn't introduce dna of foreign species into another one like genetically modified organisms do. And corn is another example of how farmers have changed the plant similar to your banana; it used to have only a few seeds on a cob, not filled with seeds like (pre-GMO) cobs. Corn and grains aren't exactly the healthiest things to eat anyway and this is what the Paleo people whom you hate have realized and acknowledged, by going back to a pre-agricultural revolution diet which the human body hasn't evolved to cope with you realize that each kernel on an ear of corn is a seed, don't you? i'm not going to rain on your whole parade because there is something to be said for whatever mods are being made in agriculture and pharma et al. first off you can't expect these companies to not make a buck. secondly a lot of our high drug costs are because the pharma's can't pass on their costs to the eurotrash or even canada because of price controls. so like it or not, we pay more an indirectly subsidize the eurotrash and others. one observation i'd like to make is that quite a few foods have been transplanted over the years without hurting anyone. potatoes are native to peru and they entered the world's food supply after the spanairds conquered the incas. the tomato is also a new world plant so forget about any roman eating marinara sauce, at least until the 1500's or so. coffee is native to ethiopia. now we have sumatran, and whatever juan valdez is growing the hills of columbia. and quite a few of very tasty and popular chinese and indian foods are made with foods not native to either area. food has been global for a very long time and hybridization has been going on forever. gmo's seem to be very much the same although the pace is accelerated. obviously we don't want a jurrasic park for plants but thus far the changes have been pretty innocuous.
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Apr 3, 2015 15:56:59 GMT -5
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Trades likes this
Post by PK on Apr 3, 2015 15:56:59 GMT -5
If anyone is looking for a hilarious read....check out Food Whores new book.
Chock full of insane rantings from the land of woo. The whole anti-GMO movement is funny as hell.
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