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Post by TheMo on Dec 23, 2014 14:12:14 GMT -5
This whole "Trade Wilkerson" talk is absolutely ridiculous. First off, because he isnt JJ Watt, doesnt mean that he isnt an exceptional player. Secondly, you say "8-10 sack guy who can play the run great" as if that is something easy to find. Lastly, his versatility to play DE and DT is extremely valuable. As for a trade, very few GMs would ever trade a pick and THEN need to sign wilkerson. So we are going to trade him this offseason, to a team that will then sign him to an extension? Why on earth wouldnt we use this years low number to negoitiate a favorable long term deal with a great defensive lineman? If you want to shake up the team a bit and try to acquire a pick, the smart move is to tender damon harrison with a 2nd round tender and let him sign elsewhere. He is a player who doesnt fit the 4-3 and could net us the second round pick (or worst case a 3rd) you talk about for wilkerson. Wilkerson is by far worth more on the field and cap wise then harrison. How is Wilkerson more cap-wise than Harrison? And why would you want two 10M+ players at either 3-4 DE or 4-3 DT? You know Sheldon will dictate that money as well. Beyond that, I would like to know why you think Wilk would be better alongside Sheldon in a 4-3? If you look at many 4-3 inside tandems, there's one that is a prototype run-stuffer that mimics the NT (oversized). I think it's fools money being wasted where it better be allocated and I don't believe talk of his being traded especially when he's hinting at Watt money is ridiculous for a new regime. A lot of 4-3 NTs are wilkersons size actually. I went looking with the same thought you had (that they would be more of Harrison's size) but was surprised that Wilk fit the bill better especially given how dangerous the guy would be versus a guy like snacks. If he signs for 10-12 I keep him, if he wants 16 and doesn't back down I try to move him after I franchise him for a year or two. |
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Post by sec.101row23 on Dec 23, 2014 15:01:35 GMT -5
How is Wilkerson more cap-wise than Harrison? And why would you want two 10M+ players at either 3-4 DE or 4-3 DT? You know Sheldon will dictate that money as well. Beyond that, I would like to know why you think Wilk would be better alongside Sheldon in a 4-3? If you look at many 4-3 inside tandems, there's one that is a prototype run-stuffer that mimics the NT (oversized). I think it's fools money being wasted where it better be allocated and I don't believe talk of his being traded especially when he's hinting at Watt money is ridiculous for a new regime. A lot of 4-3 NTs are wilkersons size actually. I went looking with the same thought you had (that they would be more of Harrison's size) but was surprised that Wilk fit the bill better especially given how dangerous the guy would be versus a guy like snacks. If he signs for 10-12 I keep him, if he wants 16 and doesn't back down I try to move him after I franchise him for a year or two. Wilkerson would be just fine in a 4-3, you can move him all over the line, inside and outside. He may want J.J Watt money but that doesn't mean he will get it from any team. |
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Post by Touchable on Dec 23, 2014 15:13:28 GMT -5
This whole "Trade Wilkerson" talk is absolutely ridiculous. First off, because he isnt JJ Watt, doesnt mean that he isnt an exceptional player. Secondly, you say "8-10 sack guy who can play the run great" as if that is something easy to find. Lastly, his versatility to play DE and DT is extremely valuable. As for a trade, very few GMs would ever trade a pick and THEN need to sign wilkerson. So we are going to trade him this offseason, to a team that will then sign him to an extension? Why on earth wouldnt we use this years low number to negoitiate a favorable long term deal with a great defensive lineman? If you want to shake up the team a bit and try to acquire a pick, the smart move is to tender damon harrison with a 2nd round tender and let him sign elsewhere. He is a player who doesnt fit the 4-3 and could net us the second round pick (or worst case a 3rd) you talk about for wilkerson. Wilkerson is by far worth more on the field and cap wise then harrison. I never said that we should trade Wilkerson no matter what. I'm saying that if he wants more than $10-11 million a year...then yeah, he can go fuck himself. Richardson is the rarer talent that is worth big money down the road and if we're sticking with the 3-4, then having a quality NT like Snacks is crucial. Are we prepared to devote almost $30 million a year strictly to 3 players along the DL for the foreseeable future? |
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Post by eaglenj on Dec 23, 2014 15:27:59 GMT -5
Exactly this. I don't want to trade Mo. He's a great player, but if he demanded more money than he's worth I wouldn't mind shipping him out. Richardson is better, and Coples will be cheaper, and playing at his natural position. The problem is if he demands more than he's worth what is the trade market? We've seen players like Revis and Harvin bring back a King's ransom, but player trades aren't common. I'm not doing it unless we get a 1st and a mid to late round pick. I think the most you get for him is a 2nd due to his impending payday. The value of draft picks have gone up considerably just the past two years. You won't get a 1st plus for him today. First off - we arent playing a 3-34 anymore, we will be in a hybrid where Richardson is a penetrating DT (similar to warren sapp) and wilkerson alternates between DT and DE. Secondly, the main reason they can and should play together is to rush the passer. The type of football where teams ran the ball more, and a DLine like rex built to stop the run and force 3rd and longs where you could blitz, is over. You need players who can stop the run AND rush the passer, which is why Wilkerson is so valuable as a DT. Are you going to sit here and say that teams could run on us if our DTs were Wilkerson and Richardson because that is absurd. Furthermore, given that coples is better suited to play on the line, and can also play both DT and DE, we can effectively change him and wilkerson all game, creating confusion and mismatches. Lastly, those 3, are both stout enough and athletic enough to allow us to have the 4th member of the "line" (Be it a DE or "rush LB") be someone who is fast off the edge, but plays at 265 and can actually make plays in space. Harrison is a good player, and yes draft picks are valuable, but I would much rather get rid of a one run stuffing NT, and fill his snaps with kenrick ellis, instead of a versatile Dlineman like wilkerson who can play multiple positions, plays the run well and can rush the passer. |
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Post by Bavarian on Dec 23, 2014 16:28:17 GMT -5
I think the most you get for him is a 2nd due to his impending payday. The value of draft picks have gone up considerably just the past two years. You won't get a 1st plus for him today. First off - we arent playing a 3-34 anymore, we will be in a hybrid where Richardson is a penetrating DT (similar to warren sapp) and wilkerson alternates between DT and DE. Secondly, the main reason they can and should play together is to rush the passer. The type of football where teams ran the ball more, and a DLine like rex built to stop the run and force 3rd and longs where you could blitz, is over. You need players who can stop the run AND rush the passer, which is why Wilkerson is so valuable as a DT. Are you going to sit here and say that teams could run on us if our DTs were Wilkerson and Richardson because that is absurd. Furthermore, given that coples is better suited to play on the line, and can also play both DT and DE, we can effectively change him and wilkerson all game, creating confusion and mismatches. Lastly, those 3, are both stout enough and athletic enough to allow us to have the 4th member of the "line" (Be it a DE or "rush LB") be someone who is fast off the edge, but plays at 265 and can actually make plays in space. Harrison is a good player, and yes draft picks are valuable, but I would much rather get rid of a one run stuffing NT, and fill his snaps with kenrick ellis, instead of a versatile Dlineman like wilkerson who can play multiple positions, plays the run well and can rush the passer. You mostly lost me here. I didn't understand any of your points. Sorry. Apparently you think my reasoning is absurd, that much I got. Okay. |
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Post by Bavarian on Dec 23, 2014 16:28:28 GMT -5
First off - we arent playing a 3-34 anymore, we will be in a hybrid where Richardson is a penetrating DT (similar to warren sapp) and wilkerson alternates between DT and DE. Secondly, the main reason they can and should play together is to rush the passer. The type of football where teams ran the ball more, and a DLine like rex built to stop the run and force 3rd and longs where you could blitz, is over. You need players who can stop the run AND rush the passer, which is why Wilkerson is so valuable as a DT. Are you going to sit here and say that teams could run on us if our DTs were Wilkerson and Richardson because that is absurd. Furthermore, given that coples is better suited to play on the line, and can also play both DT and DE, we can effectively change him and wilkerson all game, creating confusion and mismatches. Lastly, those 3, are both stout enough and athletic enough to allow us to have the 4th member of the "line" (Be it a DE or "rush LB") be someone who is fast off the edge, but plays at 265 and can actually make plays in space. Harrison is a good player, and yes draft picks are valuable, but I would much rather get rid of a one run stuffing NT, and fill his snaps with kenrick ellis, instead of a versatile Dlineman like wilkerson who can play multiple positions, plays the run well and can rush the passer. Another double post - very slow loading. |
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Post by Bavarian on Dec 23, 2014 16:28:40 GMT -5
I think the most you get for him is a 2nd due to his impending payday. The value of draft picks have gone up considerably just the past two years. You won't get a 1st plus for him today. First off - we arent playing a 3-34 anymore, we will be in a hybrid where Richardson is a penetrating DT (similar to warren sapp) and wilkerson alternates between DT and DE. Secondly, the main reason they can and should play together is to rush the passer. The type of football where teams ran the ball more, and a DLine like rex built to stop the run and force 3rd and longs where you could blitz, is over. You need players who can stop the run AND rush the passer, which is why Wilkerson is so valuable as a DT. Are you going to sit here and say that teams could run on us if our DTs were Wilkerson and Richardson because that is absurd. Furthermore, given that coples is better suited to play on the line, and can also play both DT and DE, we can effectively change him and wilkerson all game, creating confusion and mismatches. Lastly, those 3, are both stout enough and athletic enough to allow us to have the 4th member of the "line" (Be it a DE or "rush LB") be someone who is fast off the edge, but plays at 265 and can actually make plays in space. Harrison is a good player, and yes draft picks are valuable, but I would much rather get rid of a one run stuffing NT, and fill his snaps with kenrick ellis, instead of a versatile Dlineman like wilkerson who can play multiple positions, plays the run well and can rush the passer. Double post. |
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Post by eaglenj on Dec 24, 2014 7:57:16 GMT -5
First off - we arent playing a 3-34 anymore, we will be in a hybrid where Richardson is a penetrating DT (similar to warren sapp) and wilkerson alternates between DT and DE. Secondly, the main reason they can and should play together is to rush the passer. The type of football where teams ran the ball more, and a DLine like rex built to stop the run and force 3rd and longs where you could blitz, is over. You need players who can stop the run AND rush the passer, which is why Wilkerson is so valuable as a DT. Are you going to sit here and say that teams could run on us if our DTs were Wilkerson and Richardson because that is absurd. Furthermore, given that coples is better suited to play on the line, and can also play both DT and DE, we can effectively change him and wilkerson all game, creating confusion and mismatches. Lastly, those 3, are both stout enough and athletic enough to allow us to have the 4th member of the "line" (Be it a DE or "rush LB") be someone who is fast off the edge, but plays at 265 and can actually make plays in space. Harrison is a good player, and yes draft picks are valuable, but I would much rather get rid of a one run stuffing NT, and fill his snaps with kenrick ellis, instead of a versatile Dlineman like wilkerson who can play multiple positions, plays the run well and can rush the passer. Another double post - very slow loading. |
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Post by eaglenj on Dec 24, 2014 7:59:43 GMT -5
My point is that with more teams passing on first and second down, you need players who can rush the passer and play the run. Snacks is excellent vs the run, but isnt much of a pass rusher, so I would prefer someone like wilkerson as the DT opposite richardson.
Also, dont forget that Snacks is going to get $6-7 million a year (going rate for a quality NT), so its not just a question of "Can we afford richardson and wilkerson for $20 million?" Its would we prefer that over richardson and snacks for $16 million.
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Post by nomelkiper on Jan 2, 2015 23:48:15 GMT -5
What will keep Wilkerson's trade value down is his contract situation. He is due to be a FA after next season and right now is looking for decent to big money. If you look back at recent trades for higher profile players like Harvin and Revis, where teams gave up high picks and paid big money, they haven't exactly worked out very well for the teams trading for that player. I think you could still get a team to bite for decent value. Both the Raiders and Jags are in dire need of DL help. If I'm the Raiders, I'd rather have Wilkerson and Amari Cooper over Leonard Williams and a 2nd/3rd tier receiver in the 2nd or 3rd round. Both the Jaguars and the Raiders have a lot of money to play with in Fa. Both those teams could sign Suh ( can easily afford him) and still draft Cooper. That's way better than giving up draft picks for Wilkerson. Both those teams in addition to Suh, can add a top Wr in Fa also. Now they can go in any direction during the draft. |
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Post by Touchable on Jan 16, 2015 23:16:43 GMT -5
**UPDATE
Staff
GM Mike Maccagnan
HC Todd Bowles
OC Chan Gailey
DC Kacy Rodgers
ST Keith Armstrong
FA Signings
OG Mike Iupati
RB C.J. Spiller
CB Byron Maxwell
CB Buster Skrine
OLB Brandon Graham
TE Bear Pascoe
QB Ryan Mallett
FA Re-Signings
DE Muhammad Wilkerson (extension)
NT Damon Harrison (2nd round tender)
Cuts
RB Chris Johnson
TE Jeff Cumberland
DE Jason Babin
Draft
1st round: QB Marcus Mariota - Oregon
2nd round: ILB Denzel Perryman - Miami
3rd round: WR Sammie Coates - Auburn
5th round: DL Luther Maddy - Virginia Tech
6th round: RB Marcus Murphy - Missouri
7th round: ILB Jeff Luc - Cincinnati
Projected 2015 Starting Lineup
QB Marcus Mariota
RB Chris Ivory/C.J. Spiller
WR Eric Decker
WR Percy Harvin
WR Jeremy Kerley
TE Jace Amaro
LT D'Brickashaw Ferguson
LG Mike Iupati
C Nick Mangold
RG Dakota Dozier
RT Breno Giacomini
DE Muhammad Wilkerson
NT Damon Harrison
DE Sheldon Richardson
OLB Brandon Graham
ILB Demario Davis
ILB Denzel Perryman
OLB Quinton Coples
CB Byron Maxwell
CB Dee Milliner
FS Antonio Allen
SS Calvin Pryor
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Post by Aussie Jet on Jan 18, 2015 0:13:19 GMT -5
Still don't see the need to spend money on a free agent running back. Cut Johnson and make Ivory and Powell the first two RBs on the depth chart heading into the draft.
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Post by Bavarian on Jan 18, 2015 2:28:35 GMT -5
Still don't see the need to spend money on a free agent running back. Cut Johnson and make Ivory and Powell the first two RBs on the depth chart heading into the draft. That's an option but understand we may not have our 4th rounder leaving us with 6 picks. But this is a deep draft for RB's. Powell is a FA so we'll see what Chan thinks of him to re-sign. I think he would be a great fit for his offense. Ivory I'm not so sure although he's under contract for one more season. i wouldn't be at all surprised to see an Ivory trade and a FA signing of Spiller. Gailey loves the receiving type RB's. As for the money side, the Jets must spend this cap year and RB's are relatively cheap as a position. |
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Post by Bavarian on Jan 18, 2015 2:53:05 GMT -5
It should get interesting next month seeing who the Jets extend and release. With the new offense will Gailey utilize the FB? Blocking TE? Will he want a more athletic LG than Iupati in FA such as Orlando Franklin? Does he want to keep Harvin? Powell? A one-dimensional Ivory? And what about QB?
On D, does Bowles go with a 4-3 which would call for fewer LB's of which the Jets really have only one starter in Davis or stick with the 3-4? Would he prefer a zone or man coverage in the secondary? Who will be the ST coach and offensive positional coaches?
A lot of work to be done and I can understand why teams are not waiting for the Super Bowl to end to select a HC as FA starts soon.
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Post by Aussie Jet on Jan 18, 2015 2:53:16 GMT -5
I don't think Iupati comes cheaply. There'll be multiple teams chasing him. Using the money earmarked for Spiller could be enough to put the Jets over the hump to sign him.
Personally, I think a free agent RB is a low priority signing compared to what Mac-daddy could sign in free agency. I'd rather chase free agent targets like Iupati, Cobb, Maxwell and a QB to compete with Geno than sign a RB.
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