|
|
Post by thebigragu on Dec 11, 2014 10:25:25 GMT -5
You made a smug comment now your weasling your way out of it. But fine Let's discuss the feelings on torture that America did.
|
|
|
|
Post by Ff2 on Dec 11, 2014 10:42:30 GMT -5
Dont get all warFist on me. Don't be a pussy and look at every little remark as an "attack." I think its reasonable of me to question how people feel about this given their faith. You know I like you so you better give me a list of what we can't discuss. If you want me to put in a different way fine...."How can people of faith justify torturing another human being." And "Because they do it" isn't a great answer. We are ON THE RECORD for torturing people and then months later deciding they were the wrong guys. Opps. For the record, I don't even know how I feel about all this. Trying to process it through discussion. Lets not turn this place into what JI's Politics was. Oh it's certainly will never be JI politics here. Literally there's no moderating to save someone's ass because feelings are hurt, or everyone disagrees with their views. As to your other point. I figured I'd ask you to keep one Hard On you have with me, My Faith the fuck out of every and any other argument. Plus how am I to explain how a person of faith deals with this type of situation, and can justify it through their faith, with a person who thinks we're delusional in our faith. Point being you don't believe in Jesus, so stop bringing it up,in order to support your argument. You fucking Dickhead now did you understand that? I could say to you What would Israel say? Pretty sure they understand the people we're dealing with. See its NOT needed in this argument about your feelings on this supposed torture You are confusing my lack of faith me hating faith. I DO NOT. All my friends are believers and we have these discussions all the time. If you are asking me never to bring up faith again, I'll honor your request but I think its crazy.How the fuck can we discuss an issue with deep moral implications without the factor of faith? Don't be so afraid of talking about faith. |
|
|
|
Post by Ff2 on Dec 11, 2014 10:44:57 GMT -5
Aret we supposed to be better then them?
|
|
|
|
Post by thebigragu on Dec 11, 2014 10:51:46 GMT -5
Oh it's certainly will never be JI politics here. Literally there's no moderating to save someone's ass because feelings are hurt, or everyone disagrees with their views. As to your other point. I figured I'd ask you to keep one Hard On you have with me, My Faith the fuck out of every and any other argument. Plus how am I to explain how a person of faith deals with this type of situation, and can justify it through their faith, with a person who thinks we're delusional in our faith. Point being you don't believe in Jesus, so stop bringing it up,in order to support your argument. You fucking Dickhead now did you understand that? I could say to you What would Israel say? Pretty sure they understand the people we're dealing with. See its NOT needed in this argument about your feelings on this supposed torture You are confusing my lack of faith me hating faith. I DO NOT. All my friends are believers and we have these discussions all the time. If you are asking me never to bring up faith again, I'll honor your request but I think its crazy.How the fuck can we discuss an issue with deep moral implications without the factor of faith? Don't be so afraid of talking about faith. Fine i guess Jesus would say like he said on so many things to us his followers.Be not afraid.. Remember they hated me first...I go before you always. And that would be for the people that don't even believe in him, he died for everyone not just Christians. Id imagine I could find a thousand more things he said, but you wouldnt be interested im pretty sure. Thats why i find your question disturbing anyhow he knew torture.. After the scourging, the soldiers taunted Jesus, making fun of Him for claiming to be the King of the Jews so they formed a crown out of reeds of thorns. The thorns were 1 to 2 inches long. They pressed the crown on His head so hard the scripture says the thorns pierced His skull. The soldiers then placed a scarlet robe on His back to simulate the robe of a king. During the Roman period the most usual cross was T-shaped, so the top bar was nailed to the upright pole at the execution ground. The top crossbar would have weighed 75-125lbs, about as heavy as a bag of cement. Jesus was forced to carry part of the cross, to the place of execution. This was an added torture for Jesus for he had to carry it almost half a mile from Pilate’s palace to Golgotha, through narrow winding streets. Jesus would already have been quite weak after being flogged at the pillar and crowned with thorns. He may not have eaten since the Last Supper with the apostles. Jesus would then have been offered a mixture of wine containing myrrh and gall. This was considered a pain reliever to deaden the pain as the nails were driven into the victim. Jesus refused it. Nails would have been driven into Jesus’ palms, wrists and feet. It is unlikely that his body-weight could have been supported if the nails had been driven through the palms of the hands alone since it is likely they would tear open. However, nails driven through the wrist bone would cause dislocation but the nails would still hold. A single nail would be driven through both feet and then into the upright cross. Through experimentation and the study of anatomy the Romans had discovered the Medial nerve located just above the wrist joint and the centre of the foot. The weight of the body caused the nail to press against this nerve shooting horrific pain throughout the nerves of the body. A notice with the name of the criminal and his crime was pinned to the cross. Crucifixion did not cause the victim to lose a lot of blood but the pain was agonising. Nailed to the cross the body of the victim would have sagged downwards, causing agonising pain and severe cramp on the arms, shoulders and chest. He would then have found it difficult to breathe and in an attempt to buy some time, he would have pushed himself up by the nails in his feet and stretched his legs which would have enabled him to breathe, but at the same time caused unbearable pain. The weight of the body, pulling down on the outstretched arms and shoulders, would tend to fix the intercostal muscles in the position of inhalation. The only way the man could exhale was to lift with his arms and push with his legs to hold himself up for a few seconds to allow the air to escape from his lungs. To avoid suffocation the man was forced to cause his own excruciating pain by putting more pressure on the medial nerves. It was only a matter of time before the victim’s heart would fail and his lungs would fill with fluid. Sometimes the executioners would nail a small ledge on the cross below the feet which allowed the victim to briefly lean and relieve the stress on the body. However, this only prolonged the agony and inevitable death. The average life span of a person on the cross was three to four days. The executioner could shorten the ordeal by smashing the victim’s legs, making it impossible for the dying man to push himself up to breathe and as a result the muscles in the shoulders would lock and the man would die from exhaustion asphyxia or suffocation. As we read in the gospel: Then the Jewish authorities asked Pilate to allow them to break the legs of the men who had been crucified, and to take the bodies down from the crosses. They requested this because it was Friday and they did not want the bodies to stay on the crosses on the Sabbath, since the coming Sabbath was especially holy. So the soldiers went and broke the legs of the first man and then of the other man who had been crucified with Jesus. But when they came to Jesus they saw that he was already dead, so they did not break his legs. One of the soldiers, however, plunged his spear into Jesus’ side and at once blood and water poured out. (John 19:31-34) Out of the wound came blood and water. Medical scientists today tell us that this could only happen when the aortic valve ruptures due to the formation of thrombotic vegetations in the valve. This condition is caused by extreme emotional trauma. |
|
|
|
Post by Can'tGetEnoughJizzInMyMouth on Dec 11, 2014 10:53:23 GMT -5
Arms pulled out of sockets is torture... Bamboo splints under fingernails is torture.... A wet towel on your face and water up your nose is not torture... It may be a bit uncomfortable but it isn't torture... These filthy unwashed head chopping savages should have experienced real torture.....
|
|
|
|
Post by Can'tGetEnoughJizzInMyMouth on Dec 11, 2014 10:55:43 GMT -5
www.cnn.com/2014/12/10/world/senate-torture-report-world-reaction/Afghanistan Afghanistan's President Ashraf Ghani condemned the "inhumane actions" outlined in the report and told reporters in Kabul Wednesday that the document "unfortunately shows that our Afghan compatriots had been tortured." It was "really painful" that some torture victims were innocent, he said. "All Afghan people should know that after 2014 no international forces would be allowed to put any Afghan citizen in jail, get into their homes or have prisons," he said. China Foreign Ministry Spokesperson Hong Lei told reporters Wednesday: "China consistently opposes torture. We believe that the U.S. side should reflect upon and rectify its relevant behavior, earnestly obey and implement the provisions of international conventions." In a commentary published by the state-run Xinhua news agency, China blasted what it said was "the sheer hypocrisy of the United States as a defender of human rights." The commentary said Guantanamo Bay was "notorious for human rights violations since 2004," adding that neither President George W. Bush nor President Barrack Obama "has done anything to change the situation." "To simply look through the details of water boarding, deprivation of sleep and hork hork wherg wherg whergual abuses in the report can constitute a traumatizing experience," Wang Shang said in the commentary. Great Britain Prime Minster David Cameron condemned torture while in Turkey on Tuesday, saying: "Torture is wrong. Torture is always wrong. Those of us want to see a safer, more secure world, want to see the extremism defeated. We won't succeed if we lose our moral authority." Iran
Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei responded to the report in a series of tweets, saying of the U.S.: "They claim they've a prideful nation; US govts. debased & misguided their ppl who aren't aware of many realities."
He wrote in another tweet: "Today, US govt. is symbol of tyranny against humanity; even American ppl are faced w cruelty."lol ok iran pamelageller.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/mass-hangings-in-iran-2.jpgand china thats rich. You got nets for people to stop them from killing themselves due to too much work, so they can go back to work. The rest of this world can kiss my American ass What would Jesus say? Jesus would say having water up your nose isn't torture... Being crucified is torture... |
|
|
|
Post by Ff2 on Dec 11, 2014 10:57:14 GMT -5
You are confusing my lack of faith me hating faith. I DO NOT. All my friends are believers and we have these discussions all the time. If you are asking me never to bring up faith again, I'll honor your request but I think its crazy.How the fuck can we discuss an issue with deep moral implications without the factor of faith? Don't be so afraid of talking about faith. Fine i guess Jesus would say like he said on so many things to us his followers.Be not afraid.. Remember they hated me first...I go before you always. And that would be for the people that don't even believe in him, he died for everyone not just Christians. Id imagine I could find a thousand more things he said, but you wouldnt be interested im pretty sure. Thats why i find your question disturbing anyhow he knew torture.. After the scourging, the soldiers taunted Jesus, making fun of Him for claiming to be the King of the Jews so they formed a crown out of reeds of thorns. The thorns were 1 to 2 inches long. They pressed the crown on His head so hard the scripture says the thorns pierced His skull. The soldiers then placed a scarlet robe on His back to simulate the robe of a king. During the Roman period the most usual cross was T-shaped, so the top bar was nailed to the upright pole at the execution ground. The top crossbar would have weighed 75-125lbs, about as heavy as a bag of cement. Jesus was forced to carry part of the cross, to the place of execution. This was an added torture for Jesus for he had to carry it almost half a mile from Pilate’s palace to Golgotha, through narrow winding streets. Jesus would already have been quite weak after being flogged at the pillar and crowned with thorns. He may not have eaten since the Last Supper with the apostles. Jesus would then have been offered a mixture of wine containing myrrh and gall. This was considered a pain reliever to deaden the pain as the nails were driven into the victim. Jesus refused it. Nails would have been driven into Jesus’ palms, wrists and feet. It is unlikely that his body-weight could have been supported if the nails had been driven through the palms of the hands alone since it is likely they would tear open. However, nails driven through the wrist bone would cause dislocation but the nails would still hold. A single nail would be driven through both feet and then into the upright cross. Through experimentation and the study of anatomy the Romans had discovered the Medial nerve located just above the wrist joint and the centre of the foot. The weight of the body caused the nail to press against this nerve shooting horrific pain throughout the nerves of the body. A notice with the name of the criminal and his crime was pinned to the cross. Crucifixion did not cause the victim to lose a lot of blood but the pain was agonising. Nailed to the cross the body of the victim would have sagged downwards, causing agonising pain and severe cramp on the arms, shoulders and chest. He would then have found it difficult to breathe and in an attempt to buy some time, he would have pushed himself up by the nails in his feet and stretched his legs which would have enabled him to breathe, but at the same time caused unbearable pain. The weight of the body, pulling down on the outstretched arms and shoulders, would tend to fix the intercostal muscles in the position of inhalation. The only way the man could exhale was to lift with his arms and push with his legs to hold himself up for a few seconds to allow the air to escape from his lungs. To avoid suffocation the man was forced to cause his own excruciating pain by putting more pressure on the medial nerves. It was only a matter of time before the victim’s heart would fail and his lungs would fill with fluid. Sometimes the executioners would nail a small ledge on the cross below the feet which allowed the victim to briefly lean and relieve the stress on the body. However, this only prolonged the agony and inevitable death. The average life span of a person on the cross was three to four days. The executioner could shorten the ordeal by smashing the victim’s legs, making it impossible for the dying man to push himself up to breathe and as a result the muscles in the shoulders would lock and the man would die from exhaustion asphyxia or suffocation. As we read in the gospel: Then the Jewish authorities asked Pilate to allow them to break the legs of the men who had been crucified, and to take the bodies down from the crosses. They requested this because it was Friday and they did not want the bodies to stay on the crosses on the Sabbath, since the coming Sabbath was especially holy. So the soldiers went and broke the legs of the first man and then of the other man who had been crucified with Jesus. But when they came to Jesus they saw that he was already dead, so they did not break his legs. One of the soldiers, however, plunged his spear into Jesus’ side and at once blood and water poured out. (John 19:31-34) Out of the wound came blood and water. Medical scientists today tell us that this could only happen when the aortic valve ruptures due to the formation of thrombotic vegetations in the valve. This condition is caused by extreme emotional trauma. So moving to the issue at hand, I assume you live your live according to Jesus teachings. What is the appropriate way to handle our enemies? |
|
|
|
Post by Can'tGetEnoughJizzInMyMouth on Dec 11, 2014 10:59:31 GMT -5
Fine i guess Jesus would say like he said on so many things to us his followers.Be not afraid.. Remember they hated me first...I go before you always. And that would be for the people that don't even believe in him, he died for everyone not just Christians. Id imagine I could find a thousand more things he said, but you wouldnt be interested im pretty sure. Thats why i find your question disturbing anyhow he knew torture.. After the scourging, the soldiers taunted Jesus, making fun of Him for claiming to be the King of the Jews so they formed a crown out of reeds of thorns. The thorns were 1 to 2 inches long. They pressed the crown on His head so hard the scripture says the thorns pierced His skull. The soldiers then placed a scarlet robe on His back to simulate the robe of a king. During the Roman period the most usual cross was T-shaped, so the top bar was nailed to the upright pole at the execution ground. The top crossbar would have weighed 75-125lbs, about as heavy as a bag of cement. Jesus was forced to carry part of the cross, to the place of execution. This was an added torture for Jesus for he had to carry it almost half a mile from Pilate’s palace to Golgotha, through narrow winding streets. Jesus would already have been quite weak after being flogged at the pillar and crowned with thorns. He may not have eaten since the Last Supper with the apostles. Jesus would then have been offered a mixture of wine containing myrrh and gall. This was considered a pain reliever to deaden the pain as the nails were driven into the victim. Jesus refused it. Nails would have been driven into Jesus’ palms, wrists and feet. It is unlikely that his body-weight could have been supported if the nails had been driven through the palms of the hands alone since it is likely they would tear open. However, nails driven through the wrist bone would cause dislocation but the nails would still hold. A single nail would be driven through both feet and then into the upright cross. Through experimentation and the study of anatomy the Romans had discovered the Medial nerve located just above the wrist joint and the centre of the foot. The weight of the body caused the nail to press against this nerve shooting horrific pain throughout the nerves of the body. A notice with the name of the criminal and his crime was pinned to the cross. Crucifixion did not cause the victim to lose a lot of blood but the pain was agonising. Nailed to the cross the body of the victim would have sagged downwards, causing agonising pain and severe cramp on the arms, shoulders and chest. He would then have found it difficult to breathe and in an attempt to buy some time, he would have pushed himself up by the nails in his feet and stretched his legs which would have enabled him to breathe, but at the same time caused unbearable pain. The weight of the body, pulling down on the outstretched arms and shoulders, would tend to fix the intercostal muscles in the position of inhalation. The only way the man could exhale was to lift with his arms and push with his legs to hold himself up for a few seconds to allow the air to escape from his lungs. To avoid suffocation the man was forced to cause his own excruciating pain by putting more pressure on the medial nerves. It was only a matter of time before the victim’s heart would fail and his lungs would fill with fluid. Sometimes the executioners would nail a small ledge on the cross below the feet which allowed the victim to briefly lean and relieve the stress on the body. However, this only prolonged the agony and inevitable death. The average life span of a person on the cross was three to four days. The executioner could shorten the ordeal by smashing the victim’s legs, making it impossible for the dying man to push himself up to breathe and as a result the muscles in the shoulders would lock and the man would die from exhaustion asphyxia or suffocation. As we read in the gospel: Then the Jewish authorities asked Pilate to allow them to break the legs of the men who had been crucified, and to take the bodies down from the crosses. They requested this because it was Friday and they did not want the bodies to stay on the crosses on the Sabbath, since the coming Sabbath was especially holy. So the soldiers went and broke the legs of the first man and then of the other man who had been crucified with Jesus. But when they came to Jesus they saw that he was already dead, so they did not break his legs. One of the soldiers, however, plunged his spear into Jesus’ side and at once blood and water poured out. (John 19:31-34) Out of the wound came blood and water. Medical scientists today tell us that this could only happen when the aortic valve ruptures due to the formation of thrombotic vegetations in the valve. This condition is caused by extreme emotional trauma. So moving to the issue at hand, I assume you live your live according to Jesus teachings. What is the appropriate way to handle our enemies? Understand them and empathize with them. Just ask Pant Suit Thunder Thighs... |
|
|
|
Post by Ff2 on Dec 11, 2014 11:01:01 GMT -5
So moving to the issue at hand, I assume you live your live according to Jesus teachings. What is the appropriate way to handle our enemies? Understand them and empathize with them. Just ask Pant Suit Thunder Thighs... Yeah see here we go back to JI Politics. Just taking our predetermined sides and tossing insults No real honest discussion. |
|
|
|
Post by thebigragu on Dec 11, 2014 11:19:51 GMT -5
So moving to the issue at hand, I assume you live your live according to Jesus teachings. What is the appropriate way to handle our enemies? Understand them and empathize with them. Just ask Pant Suit Thunder Thighs... I try everday and compared to the man i was to the man I am now people that have known both old and new me are rather suprised. In any case we have all fallen short of the glory of God. We are all sinners not one of us is worthy not one. Thats why I follow Jesus because he understands the hearts of men, and will take my place before the Father. That is what I believe. Give to ceasars what is ceasars, give to God what is Gods. I don't agree with any type of torture, I dont agree with just about anything this country does anymore, Its become a dwelling place for every miscreant and heathen. But I live here need to support my family legally and i do that, by separating what i just said above. I do many good things that is between me and my God. The world belongs to the Devil, this is his arena I believe that, more so today then when the nuns and priests tried to drill it into my head as a child. I see it every time i pick up a paper or see the news. My brother in law is an ex ranger and i have many talks with him hes a strong tough guy and feels comfortable telling me what went on over there and here, to see him cry is shocking if you knew him youd know what i mean. No one wants to shoot a 13 year old with an ak47 but those things happen in this world. Nobody wants to torture some poor sob with information, but those things happen. No body wants to kill hundreds or thousands of kids when a missile goes off course, but those things happen. Only us the people living in this world can stop it. But we never will, things behind the scenes for thousands of years stirring the pot |
|
|
|
Post by Ff2 on Dec 11, 2014 11:38:34 GMT -5
Understand them and empathize with them. Just ask Pant Suit Thunder Thighs... I try everday and compared to the man i was to the man I am now people that have known both old and new me are rather suprised. In any case we have all fallen short of the glory of God. We are all sinners not one of us is worthy not one. Thats why I follow Jesus because he understands the hearts of men, and will take my place before the Father. That is what I believe. Give to ceasars what is ceasars, give to God what is Gods. I don't agree with any type of torture, I dont agree with just about anything this country does anymore, Its become a dwelling place for every miscreant and heathen. But I live here need to support my family legally and i do that, by separating what i just said above. I do many good things that is between me and my God. The world belongs to the Devil, this is his arena I believe that, more so today then when the nuns and priests tried to drill it into my head as a child. I see it every time i pick up a paper or see the news. My brother in law is an ex ranger and i have many talks with him hes a strong tough guy and feels comfortable telling me what went on over there and here, to see him cry is shocking if you knew him youd know what i mean. No one wants to shoot a 13 year old with an ak47 but those things happen in this world. Nobody wants to torture some poor sob with information, but those things happen. No body wants to kill hundreds or thousands of kids when a missile goes off course, but those things happen. Only us the people living in this world can stop it. But we never will, things behind the scenes for thousands of years stirring the pot See there ya go bro, real talk. Thats the daily struggle we all face, juxtaposing our beliefs with our daily lives. Trying to make sense with what we believe and how it can ever fit in with the world as it is. How can we ask others to be evil on our behalf unless we ourselves are willing to be evil. These aren't easy things. Its a dirty world. |
|
|
|
Post by jetstream23 on Dec 11, 2014 11:46:27 GMT -5
So looks like the US tortures people. Not as bad as how you torture us. Just sayin'. |
|
|
|
Post by DDNYjets on Dec 11, 2014 11:46:28 GMT -5
Is there anything new here?
Am I supposed to feel sorry for terrorists?
I do feel bad for the guys that were innocent but that's war. You make a lot of omelets.
Next time a video of an American being beheaded shows up on YouTube everybody is going to go back to not giving a fuck about "torture".
|
|
|
|
Post by Can'tGetEnoughJizzInMyMouth on Dec 11, 2014 13:51:55 GMT -5
Is there anything new here? Am I supposed to feel sorry for terrorists? I do feel bad for the guys that were innocent but that's war. You make a lot of omelets. Next time a video of an American being beheaded shows up on YouTube everybody is going to go back to not giving a fuck about "torture". While liberals teach our kids to be politically correct and tolerant, they are teaching theirs how to kill us.... who do you think is going to win that war? |
|
|
|
Post by rexneffect on Dec 11, 2014 14:39:24 GMT -5
It's hard to take seriously those excusing what happened because the torture wasn't "bad enough" when they are the same people screaming about a war on christmas and believe the constitution was shredded because a few political groups couldn't get a tax-advantaged status.
What's even more difficult to understand are people who think gun ownership is a necessity to prevent government tyranny but have no problem with the government engaging in that type of behavior--whether you want to call it torture or not. That places a lot of trust in the government to only direct this behavior towards external threats but that is the same government that is proving itself untrustworthy by disregarding its commitments to prisoner treatment. It is peculiar that anybody who believes they need to personally arm themselves against government tyranny would ever want to acquiesce to the government giving itself the authority to treat people in that manner. Once people feel like its ok for the government to do that externally it is a much smaller leap to finding it acceptable here. And if you believe there is an impassable chasm between doing that externally and internally then I'd only point you to the drone use externally and comments, even by Republicans, about the use of drones internally. Or similar use of privacy-invading technology domestically.
|
|
