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Post by BEAC0NJET on Apr 8, 2016 15:43:41 GMT -5
And what do we, as a society, do with people whose potential simply isn't very high? and there in lies the reason we are where we are. Why is it society's problem to handle those who wont go to work. I agree with your general response, but I think Warfish was asking more, what do we do with people who are just, quite frankly dumb? There will always be some subset that DO work hard, they're just not very bright with the book learnin. We need to then do a better job steering those folks into more appropriate lines of work, and not blowing smoke up their asses telling them they're all special snowflakes.
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Post by BEAC0NJET on Apr 8, 2016 15:48:13 GMT -5
The jobs for the middle class are shit bc our manufacturing sector is shit. This country was at its strongest when we were making things. But that is a poison pill. We start making things and prices go up. American workers demand American wages and benefits. An iPhone built here could cost $2k. Nobody is willing to pay that. Its not the 1%'s fault. And NOBODY is fixing that. Free college isnt going to fix that. Double our debt in the next 4 years under Bernie isnt going to fix that. Its all just pipe dreams. We need to fundamentally change how we do things. Start kids on the track to careers EARLY in school. No more coddling and birthdays = diplomas. Give people real skills. And even that wont enough. It still will be very hard. But the handouts and finger pointing havent worked. I would argue they have made things worse. We can confiscate all the money those evil 1%'s have and give all the baristas and burger flippers a raise but eventually that will dry up too. What we are doing now is unsustainable. This. Well said. No more six figure college loans for low five figure careers. As a buddy of mine said, if my kids become welders, they'll make a good wage, not be 22 and deep in debt, and no welder ever accused another of falsely sexually assaulting him at a frat party.
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Post by Warfish on Apr 8, 2016 21:04:26 GMT -5
What tools and opportunities are you proposing then? And what do we, as a society, do with people whose potential simply isn't very high? and there in lies the reason we are where we are. Why is it society's problem to handle those who wont go to work. I grew up on food stamps and welfare, free lunch etc. NOTHING changed until I got a job. So without welfare, you'd have died as a small child. Seems you've made a strong argument for social welfare, my taker friend. I myself have never taken a penny, not I, not my father/mother, but I respect that such systems keep folks like you alive when in need. And I am glad for it, the world is better with you in it, as opposed to dead from starvation.
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Post by Trades on Apr 9, 2016 9:46:03 GMT -5
and there in lies the reason we are where we are. Why is it society's problem to handle those who wont go to work. I grew up on food stamps and welfare, free lunch etc. NOTHING changed until I got a job. So without welfare, you'd have died as a small child. Seems you've made a strong argument for social welfare, my taker friend. I myself have never taken a penny, not I, not my father/mother, but I respect that such systems keep folks like you alive when in need. And I am glad for it, the world is better with you in it, as opposed to dead from starvation. There is definitely a place for social welfare. I don't think anyone is putting that up except people arguing against a strawman. When we have SO many people on disability that it is big business for doctors to put people on it and we are at record numbers for Workforce Participation then we have to figure out why so many have decided to opt out of the workforce and chose the perpetual safety net instead. Is it a lack of jobs, lack of skills or is the safety net too lucrative? The graph below shows "Labor Force Statistics from the Current Population Survey" from 1970 to present. The good news is that this graph shows that we can come back from low numbers. The question is how do we do that?
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Post by southparkcpa on Apr 9, 2016 14:15:00 GMT -5
and there in lies the reason we are where we are. Why is it society's problem to handle those who wont go to work. I grew up on food stamps and welfare, free lunch etc. NOTHING changed until I got a job. So without welfare, you'd have died as a small child. Seems you've made a strong argument for social welfare, my taker friend. I myself have never taken a penny, not I, not my father/mother, but I respect that such systems keep folks like you alive when in need. And I am glad for it, the world is better with you in it, as opposed to dead from starvation. Very fair and valid argument. We were on welfare after dad died. Probably collected about 5 years or so. I would add to your point, the free lunch program was absolutely a game changer for me. How ever, we have generations of families now accustomed to this. At at some point... Government must step back. 50 percent of Americans pay no tax. That's simply wrong. Work and vocation are the only sustainable answer to substance and some real happiness.
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Post by Warfish on Apr 9, 2016 18:48:07 GMT -5
So without welfare, you'd have died as a small child. Seems you've made a strong argument for social welfare, my taker friend. I myself have never taken a penny, not I, not my father/mother, but I respect that such systems keep folks like you alive when in need. And I am glad for it, the world is better with you in it, as opposed to dead from starvation. There is definitely a place for social welfare. I don't think anyone is putting that up except people arguing against a strawman. By "strawman" you mean Libertarians, Tea Party Republicans and Mainstream Republicans, right? To complain the Government isn't working, your Party should actually be working to make Government work. Not obstruct every law, every idea, like a bunch of poopy two-year olds taking their ball and going home. Of course abuse is an issue. But it takes two parties working to fix a system to fix it, not one party half-dedicated to terminating Government and the other half refusing to vote for anything. Lets test the theory. If you think being on social welfare is "too lucrative", quit your job and live on social welfare for one year. Come back and regale us of how awesome it was. Simply looking at Labor Force participation and going "ugh bad" is the worst kind of shallow analysis. Why is it bad? Is a retired millionaire not working "bad" too, because they make up a more than fair share of our "non-working" in America. The question to ask is why people aren't working, not how many aren't working. Then analyze the data from there. And maybe, just maybe, take a look at how our Corporations consistently outsource jobs to Mexico, India and elsewhere, then have their bought and paid for politicians tell you how BAD the low workforce participation rate is.
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Post by Warfish on Apr 9, 2016 18:56:55 GMT -5
At at some point... Government must step back. Why? Because individuals will solve these problems alone? Because our Corporations will not exploit every and any chance to abuse a Govt. free system? Please, we know you're not that naive my friend. Why? People who have more than they could ever possibly need can afford to pay and suffer in no real meaningful way for having done so, people who have less than they need cannot and should not. Taking $1.00 from some poor schmuck so we don't have to take that dollar for a guy with $100,000,000 is not moral nor is it righteous. It's exploitation, by the rich, for for the rich, to the benefit of the rich and the rich alone. Whats amazing is how many average slubs with no chance to EVER be rich themselves they've convinced to vote against their own fiscal interests. Be assured, unless you make some unreasonable amount of money, Universal Healthcare paid for by taxing the rich is better for you than the current system. Millions, including the vast majority of "derp no socialism in my merica!" Republican voters, would benefit greatly in fiscal terms to the detriment of a very few who would simply not get that fifth car or that third 10,000 sq ft. house in Paris. Yet they're convinced their impossible shot at Trump-like welath is better than actual things paid for by taxing the rich. Amazing that middle class voters would rather eat shit in our current system than support the rich paying higher taxes and themselves getting more benefits. The fact is more people who so loudly proclaim they "earned" what they have did not in fact do so. The circumstances of their births, who they were born to, where, what color and gender and sexuality, their genetics, their parents efforts, their teachers efforts, their local school districts, etc, etc, etc, played vastly more of a role in their future success than any "effort" they themselves put in. People are products of their circumstances in the vast majority. Exceptions exist, and they only serve to prove the majority rule. If you believe this, then surely you are for a living wage, so the people you so easily bemoan for being on welfare, but ARE working, can stop taking welfare and be paid right? I mean you do understand that the low wage can only exist because corporations are taking advantage of welfare to get away with paying so little, right? No welfare = no more taking a $7.00 jobs for anyone. What the ultra-rich and their useful-idiot not-rich-but-think-they-have-a-chance-to-be friends don;t get is that wealth disparity can only go so far. Go too far, and rich will be eaten by the poor.
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Post by Warfish on Apr 9, 2016 19:00:49 GMT -5
Duplicate post, apologies.
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Post by rangerous on Apr 10, 2016 9:52:14 GMT -5
No one says we should be "equal." Its the huge gap between the rich and poor with a dying middle0class that is problem, not from a moral perspective but for the long term economic health of the country. uh, there has always been a huge gap. the question is whether or not ordinary people are being systematically held down by the rich. in this case it's not true. go take a look at the forbes list of rich people. by and large it is made up of people who created wealth for themselves without first having a silver spoon planted firmly in their mouths. and that list is always churning so many people on it one year are off it the next. finally take a look at all of those wall street banksters who are there. right, there aren't that many. heck i'll bet the walton family outnumbers to number of banksters on the list. the old adage of shirtsleeves to shirtsleeves in 3 generations still mostly applies. and, by the way, there are rules for adjusting corporate salaries and bonuses, it's called the board room. the corporate governance laws could be changed to allow the shareholders more power in setting corporate salaries. companies incorporate in delaware to avoid governance rules thereby letting the ceo's run roughshod over the shae holders. what i see as the real problem is the growth of the political class. that is people who are growing up to be politicians or whose jobs exist as a direct result of government. there are tons of middle and high level bureaucrats who are entrenched in the system and are also bringing their children into the system. they essentially control the cost of government and the agencies they are in are actually making the laws. the number of agencies means that there are not only duplicated laws but laws that are ambiguous and difficult to understand. wasn't it jefferson who said a nation can not afford to be free and ignorant? well, ignorance of the law is a crime but if the laws are too ambiguous and unintelligible then how can anyone understand them? they can't so basically with each passing year we have more and more people who are essentially law breakers.
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Post by rangerous on Apr 10, 2016 9:57:44 GMT -5
Sigh, if we are going to decide the middle class is disappearing because those damn kids are lazy today we will never address the root causes. Who said it was bc of the kids? Almost all of us said lack of manufacturing and outsourcing of jobs and people choosing bad career paths. The perpetually entitled and grieved millennials are just one of reasons why it will never make a comeback. it's because of our stupid education system that values diversity and title IX over good hard work. and it doesn't start with the colleges. it starts in grade school where the kids get trophies for just showing up and kids who show the high potential get stomped down. and as much as we say and think we have free speech, kids are being brainwashed into thinking they can say anything as long as it's the party line. this is not freedom or free expression, it's tyranny.
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Post by Trades on Apr 10, 2016 12:08:54 GMT -5
There is definitely a place for social welfare. I don't think anyone is putting that up except people arguing against a strawman. By "strawman" you mean Libertarians, Tea Party Republicans and Mainstream Republicans, right? To complain the Government isn't working, your Party should actually be working to make Government work. Not obstruct every law, every idea, like a bunch of poopy two-year olds taking their ball and going home. Of course abuse is an issue. But it takes two parties working to fix a system to fix it, not one party half-dedicated to terminating Government and the other half refusing to vote for anything. Lets test the theory. If you think being on social welfare is "too lucrative", quit your job and live on social welfare for one year. Come back and regale us of how awesome it was. Simply looking at Labor Force participation and going "ugh bad" is the worst kind of shallow analysis. Why is it bad? Is a retired millionaire not working "bad" too, because they make up a more than fair share of our "non-working" in America. The question to ask is why people aren't working, not how many aren't working. Then analyze the data from there. And maybe, just maybe, take a look at how our Corporations consistently outsource jobs to Mexico, India and elsewhere, then have their bought and paid for politicians tell you how BAD the low workforce participation rate is. Show me one LEGITIMATE source calling for the end of all social welfare. More government isn't always the answer to bad government so sometimes obstruction of a plan is a good plan when they are blocking a garbage plan I have skills so it wouldn't be too lucrative for me. Your analysis should have also been applied to the insurance industry before the Obamacare albatross. I also stated above that outsourcing is bad.
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Post by southparkcpa on Apr 10, 2016 18:12:36 GMT -5
At at some point... Government must step back. Why? Because individuals will solve these problems alone? Because our Corporations will not exploit every and any chance to abuse a Govt. free system? Please, we know you're not that naive my friend. Why? People who have more than they could ever possibly need can afford to pay and suffer in no real meaningful way for having done so, people who have less than they need cannot and should not. Taking $1.00 from some poor schmuck so we don't have to take that dollar for a guy with $100,000,000 is not moral nor is it righteous. It's exploitation, by the rich, for for the rich, to the benefit of the rich and the rich alone. Whats amazing is how many average slubs with no chance to EVER be rich themselves they've convinced to vote against their own fiscal interests. Be assured, unless you make some unreasonable amount of money, Universal Healthcare paid for by taxing the rich is better for you than the current system. Millions, including the vast majority of "derp no socialism in my merica!" Republican voters, would benefit greatly in fiscal terms to the detriment of a very few who would simply not get that fifth car or that third 10,000 sq ft. house in Paris. Yet they're convinced their impossible shot at Trump-like welath is better than actual things paid for by taxing the rich. Amazing that middle class voters would rather eat shit in our current system than support the rich paying higher taxes and themselves getting more benefits. The fact is more people who so loudly proclaim they "earned" what they have did not in fact do so. The circumstances of their births, who they were born to, where, what color and gender and sexuality, their genetics, their parents efforts, their teachers efforts, their local school districts, etc, etc, etc, played vastly more of a role in their future success than any "effort" they themselves put in. People are products of their circumstances in the vast majority. Exceptions exist, and they only serve to prove the majority rule. If you believe this, then surely you are for a living wage, so the people you so easily bemoan for being on welfare, but ARE working, can stop taking welfare and be paid right? I mean you do understand that the low wage can only exist because corporations are taking advantage of welfare to get away with paying so little, right? No welfare = no more taking a $7.00 jobs for anyone. What the ultra-rich and their useful-idiot not-rich-but-think-they-have-a-chance-to-be friends don;t get is that wealth disparity can only go so far. Go too far, and rich will be eaten by the poor. well... I can tell you if you taxed ALL the wealthy people, for ALL of their income , we could run the country for about 4 months. The beliefs you hold, while seemingly feel good, simply dont work. I eat at Panera alot. I havent spoken to a clerk in months. All ordering is online. Why dont we just mandate that all employees get a 20 year pension, $20 an hour and 8 weeks vacation. Universal health care? Im all for it. When all government employees are on that plan I am in. Until then, its all rhetoric.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2016 4:53:59 GMT -5
People are willing to pay their accountants a lot of money to dodge what they owe or exploit any loophole possible. For you to say 50% don't pay any taxes is a massive generalization, these are the same people paying rent, the landlord pays taxes, right? I guess the renter should be simply forgotten? The low to middle income families put all of their money right back into the economy, their hourly pay is taxed as well. Give me a break with the 50% BS.
In the 2006 tax year, the most recent data available, the IRS estimates that about 83 percent of taxpayers paid their taxes accurately and on time. Among the remaining 17 or so percent, the most common offense was under-reporting income, followed by not filing taxes and underpaying taxes.
After collecting late payments and other enforcement action, the IRS estimated that for the 2006 tax year it did not collect $385 billion owed from individuals and businesses. www.cnbc.com/2014/02/28/cheat-on-taxes-never-really.html
well... I can tell you if you taxed ALL the wealthy people, for ALL of their income , we could run the country for about 4 months. The beliefs you hold, while seemingly feel good, simply dont work. I eat at Panera alot. I havent spoken to a clerk in months. All ordering is online. Why dont we just mandate that all employees get a 20 year pension, $20 an hour and 8 weeks vacation. Universal health care? Im all for it. When all government employees are on that plan I am in. Until then, its all rhetoric.
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Post by DDNYjets on Apr 11, 2016 7:19:36 GMT -5
People are willing to pay their accountants a lot of money to dodge what they owe or exploit any loophole possible. For you to say 50% don't pay any taxes is a massive generalization, these are the same people paying rent, the landlord pays taxes, right? I guess the renter should be simply forgotten? The low to middle income families put all of their money right back into the economy, their hourly pay is taxed as well. Give me a break with the 50% BS.
In the 2006 tax year, the most recent data available, the IRS estimates that about 83 percent of taxpayers paid their taxes accurately and on time. Among the remaining 17 or so percent, the most common offense was under-reporting income, followed by not filing taxes and underpaying taxes.
After collecting late payments and other enforcement action, the IRS estimated that for the 2006 tax year it did not collect $385 billion owed from individuals and businesses. www.cnbc.com/2014/02/28/cheat-on-taxes-never-really.html Which is why we need tax reform. And paying rent is not paying taxes. If you want to go down that path then we can talk about all the taxes the rich pay when they purchase goods and services. Can we include that when talking about them paying their "fair share"? (please dont make me stick up for rich people but I just hate the double standards) Pretty much everyone puts money into the economy. That is a given.
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Post by Ff2 on Apr 11, 2016 8:35:42 GMT -5
Why? Because individuals will solve these problems alone? Because our Corporations will not exploit every and any chance to abuse a Govt. free system? Please, we know you're not that naive my friend. Why? People who have more than they could ever possibly need can afford to pay and suffer in no real meaningful way for having done so, people who have less than they need cannot and should not. Taking $1.00 from some poor schmuck so we don't have to take that dollar for a guy with $100,000,000 is not moral nor is it righteous. It's exploitation, by the rich, for for the rich, to the benefit of the rich and the rich alone. Whats amazing is how many average slubs with no chance to EVER be rich themselves they've convinced to vote against their own fiscal interests. Be assured, unless you make some unreasonable amount of money, Universal Healthcare paid for by taxing the rich is better for you than the current system. Millions, including the vast majority of "derp no socialism in my merica!" Republican voters, would benefit greatly in fiscal terms to the detriment of a very few who would simply not get that fifth car or that third 10,000 sq ft. house in Paris. Yet they're convinced their impossible shot at Trump-like welath is better than actual things paid for by taxing the rich. Amazing that middle class voters would rather eat shit in our current system than support the rich paying higher taxes and themselves getting more benefits. The fact is more people who so loudly proclaim they "earned" what they have did not in fact do so. The circumstances of their births, who they were born to, where, what color and gender and sexuality, their genetics, their parents efforts, their teachers efforts, their local school districts, etc, etc, etc, played vastly more of a role in their future success than any "effort" they themselves put in. People are products of their circumstances in the vast majority. Exceptions exist, and they only serve to prove the majority rule. If you believe this, then surely you are for a living wage, so the people you so easily bemoan for being on welfare, but ARE working, can stop taking welfare and be paid right? I mean you do understand that the low wage can only exist because corporations are taking advantage of welfare to get away with paying so little, right? No welfare = no more taking a $7.00 jobs for anyone. What the ultra-rich and their useful-idiot not-rich-but-think-they-have-a-chance-to-be friends don;t get is that wealth disparity can only go so far. Go too far, and rich will be eaten by the poor. well... I can tell you if you taxed ALL the wealthy people, for ALL of their income , we could run the country for about 4 months. The beliefs you hold, while seemingly feel good, simply dont work. I eat at Panera alot. I havent spoken to a clerk in months. All ordering is online. Why dont we just mandate that all employees get a 20 year pension, $20 an hour and 8 weeks vacation. Universal health care? Im all for it. When all government employees are on that plan I am in. Until then, its all rhetoric. Why do you have to jump to the exaggerated 20 year pension crap to make a point? $15 an hours isn't going to kill any business and goes right back into the economy. And why are you against getting fellow citizens some decent basic healthcare, unless the system conforms to your made up parameters?
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